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Id:	kmc00148/kmc00148_vid1
Title:	Oral Testimony of RWAMUKWAYA Leonce
Sequence:	1 of 1
Abstract:	The oral testimony of RWAMUKWAYA Leonce, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Memorial Center in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early memories of childhood and family, discrimination and persecution of Tutsis before Genocide, the worst atrocities during Genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the Genocide, life after the Genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda.

Publisher:	Kigali Genocide Memorial

Language:	kin
Rights:	Kigali Genocide Memorial
Subject Headings:	Genocide--Rwanda--History--20th century
	Genocide-Rwanda--Survivor
	Testimony--Rwanda
	Tutsi (African people)--Interviews
	Tutsi (African people)--Crimes against--Rwanda
	Rwanda--Ethnic Relations--History--20th Century
	Rwanda--History--Civil War, 1994--Atrocities
Creator:	RWAMUKWAYA Leonce, Kigali Genocide Memorial

Ubuhamya Bwanditse

Aegis: Uyu munsi turi ni ku itariki ya cumi n’umunani z’ukwezi kwa kabiri eee ibihumbi bibiri na karindwi eee turi kwa Muzehe Rwabukwaya ,turi kumwe na Rwamukwaya Leonce n’umuhungu we ,akaba agiye kuduha amateka yo muri genocide cg e uko wabayeho muri genocide,nkaba nasabaga Leonce ko watangira utwibwira ;amazina ,imyaka ,

Leonce: Bon,nitwa Rwamukwaya Leonce Dady ,eee niryo banyita ,nkaba mfite imyaka makumyabiri n’ine,navutse muri quatre vingt deux,navukiye hano nyine iNyamirambo ku Mumena,niho nakuriye niho nkiri n’ubu ,

Aegis: None se mbere y’intambara, mwari umuryango w’abantu bangahe?

Leonce: Eeee, mbere yu y’intambara twari umuryango waba nyine papa na mama, n’abana batanu harimo abakobwa batatu n’abahungu babiri, harimo mukuru wanjye uwo nyine witabye Imana muri genocide.

Aegis: Mwatubwira ee uko mwari mubayeho, eee birumvikana uri kumwe n’ababyeyi bose abantu batari babavamo ngo bitabe Imana ibihe byiza mwagiye mugira, mbese uburyo umuryango wanyu mwari mubayeho mbere y’intambara

Leonce: Au faite, mbere y’intambara byari byari byiza niko nabivuga kuko mama yari ahari urabizi ko aba ariwe mubyeyi kenshi uba uri ku bana cyane ikindi yari umubyeyi mwiza niko nabivuga kuko nashoboye kumugira pe yari yarize, mbega urumva nari fiere ye icyo gihe kuko twarabanye, twahoraga dukora amafaite, nize ahantu heza ukurikije nicyo gihe twari turimo, mbesee nibyo mbakesha ababyeyi banjye ndumva aribyo.

Aegis: Nuko rero ku itariki ya gatandatu y’ ukwezi kwa kane, igihumbi kimwe magana cyenda mirongo icyenda na kane, nibwo ee genocide yatangiye,……….mushobora kutubwira uburyo ki genocide yatangiye inahangaha uko byagiye bibagendekera mukageregeza kubivuga mu magambo make.

Leonce: Uuuh.genocide yatangiye niba nti ntibeshye neza hari ku wa gatatu satatu n’igice, le six ,si byari satatu n’igice z’ijoro narindi kuri terrase ndi kureba kuri aeroport,mbona indege ok nu nu nu kwa kundi twakurikiranaga indege mbere y’intambara tukumva ibintu ukuntu bimeze,tubona ibintu biraturitse ku kuri aeroport, nyuma y’igihe gito nibwo ababyeyi bacu twa batangiye kurasa hari harimo abantu bari baziranye na papa na mama ,bahise binjira murugo baraza bavugana na papa hari umugabo witwa Raphael Rukerikibaye,ubwo niho bavu batubwiye ko nyine birangiye Habyarimana bamwishe kuko yari afite contact n’undi mu icyo gihe yari umukoroneli witwa muhi niba ari Muhire ibintu nkibyo wari ufite suna site icyo gihe niwe bari inshuti avu mbega bashobora kutwenforma ko Habyarimana apfuye ,tubimenya gutyo ahita anatubwira ko tudashobora kubona uko dusohoka ko batekerje ko twajya muri mille colline ariko bidashoboka,koko deja Nyamirambo na na quartier Mumena na Kivugiza bari bamaze kuzifunga kuko bari baziko ngo harimo inkotanyi nyinshi, ni gutyo genocide nayimenye bitangira gutyo,uretse ko nari narize no muri camp Kigali,mbega urumva na naba nabaye mubuzima bw’abahutu n’abatutsi icyo gihe

Aegis: Hagati aho rero ndagirango use n’unsobanurira yenda umbwire, umunsi ku wundi genocide yamaze igihekigeze nko kuva mu kwezi kane kugeza hamwe na hamwe byagiye biterwa n’ahantu aho ariho, nagirango noneho ugerageze kunyuriramo, urabona abantu baricaga, ahangaha ku Mumena nibaza kohari n’interahamwe nyinshi niba hari abantu wabonye bica, uburyo bicaga se n’ubuhe buryo, mbega ubuzima bwo muri genocide, umunsi ku wundi

Leonce: Au fait, le le sept mu gitondo, le six twaraye mu masasu, kuko twari tuki n’abana tukumva ari nk’umuziki twababwira ababyeyi bakatubwira ngo uziko mwasaze ? twe twumvaga nyine amasasu tukumva biryoshye,nyuma y’igihe gito,batubwiye ngo dutangire dushake ukuntu duhunga nibwo numvise ko noneho ibintu bikomeye , hari mu gitondo nka saamoya,saamoya za mu gitondo, ibintu bicicikana bashaka matelas bafata imyenda baduha imyenda twambara ,nibwo twagiye mu kiriziya ariko twari tu ariko urumba kuva mu gitondo ,kugirango tubone inzira dutambuke twinjire mu kiriziya du duciye muri st Andre byabaye igihe cy’amasaha manini kuko mbega kugirango tubone inzira twayibonye sa cyenda za za nimugoroba,eee niko rero byagenze,tugenda tujya mu kiriziya,nta ki nta gihe cyatinze,ii turara dusenga ,barasa .ba turaryama kuko ba ba ba haza inkomere harimo nk’abantu bo ku Mumena batemaga ,mama yari umuganga mbega sinashoboye kumubona igihe kinini kuko yahoraga avura niwe wakiraga abantu babaga baje mu kiriziya babatemye.nuko nyine igihe twa igihe cyo kuryama urumva baturega kuko aritwe bana akaba aritwe turyama ,mu gitondo turabyuka batu bagura imigati, nyine tu bari dufite abantu batuzanira imigati ku buryo ntazi,barabizana tunywa icyayi,nka ssaine twagiye muri shapele tujya gusenga noneho amasasu akabije cyane,tubura uko dusohokamo ku icyo gihe nibwo byabaye ikibzo turi muri shapele yo hanze ku kiriziya urumva ko hari harebana no ku muhanda batubuza kuba dusohotse kugirango batatubona,mu kanya baravuga ngo mushobora kuva muri shapele.

Leonce: Tuva muri shapele dusubira mu kiriziya kinini, eee ntago hashize uwanya munini hashize nk’iminota nka mirono ine, nibwo nyine hari nka satanu na mirongo in enta munsi twari tumaze mu by’ukuri mu kiriziya,hari le huit,urumva ko twagiyemo le sept,apres midi,avant midi mbere yo ku nka satanu n’ibindi nibwo badukuyemo icyo gihe hari nko mu ma sa tanu n’ibindi nibwo badukuyemo icyo gihe harimo n’imvura nyinshi nibwo twwavuyemo twirukanka nicyo kintu cya mbere cyanteye ubwoba mu buzima ok nari umwana ariko muzima bwanjye numvaga ko ntashobora kuzapfa ,kandi koko Imana zanjye niko byagenze,eee naa twa taragize mu gihe ba bi bi binjiye mu kugi gato niko kari gafunguye,baatubwira ngo dusohoke noneho ngo bari baziko harimo abahutu n’abatutsi,kubera ko ku Mumena ahabaga inkotanyi hari ngo bari baziko hari abahutu bahungiye mu kiriziya ee ni gutyo ni gutyo byagenze ,mu gihe twashatse gusohoka naragiye nirukanka koko naravugaga nti reka mpunge ngende ndebe ahandi hantu njya hatari aha ,ndagenda ngeze ku rugi ubwo nyine bari baciye mu bantu nabo baza biruka kuko nari ndi umwana sha ngeze hariya nsanga umusirikare ari iburyo bw’urwo rugi hari n’undi uri iburyo,uri ibumoso,noneho imbere hari urukuta sinashoboraga kubona uko nsohoka kundi nshaka gusubira inyuma,nshatse gusubira inyuma bahita baza bangwaho, deja nari umwana nta na na nta na poids nari mfite nta biro nibwo byagenze ,nibwo bya byabaye ngombwa ko nshobora gusohoka nyine barampushije ndasohoka.

Leonce: Baransunitse, ndasohoka ngeze hanze imbunda ebyiri zabaga zitunze aho ngaho naguye ku musirikare kuko numvaga ndi buhite andasa naguye ku mbunda y’umusirikare ahita ansu anjugunya nyine nk’umwana ngo urabona iki cyana ? mba ndi rukanse ngiye ku muhanda nsanga abantu bari gutema nyine bavuga bahitamo abatutsi muze hano,abahutu muze hano jye kuko icyo gihe hari hashize nk’umwaka ndi umuhereza hari hashize imyaka ibiri ndi umuhereza, nd’umwana njya kureba padiri ndamubwira mbabarira umpishe arambwira ngo nanjye nta kintu nakora , ngo cyakora genda wegere hariya hantu tuba nze ndahita nkwinjiza,ntibyashobotse nabonye abandi birukanka na ba mama barimo sinzi ukuntu nahindukiye,mama wanjye yari muremure yari nu n’umusore ho gato kuburyo nicyo kintu nabonye ibitenge yari yambaye abyitwikiriye,barimo kwirukanka,hariho ari kumwe na mushiki wanjye mukuru,n’undi mushiki wanjye bakurikirana,nuko mbona n’abandi bantu nyine bo muri quartier turirukanka,nanjye mpita mbakurikira ,ndavuga nti sinshobora kuguma aha nanjye bataza kunyicira aha njyenyine ,turamanuka twinjira ahantu mu mu bihuru byo mu kuri ntuza biba ngombwa ko twinjira na none muri st Andre mu kigo duca ahantu,ni ni nijye muntu jyenyine washoboye kuvugana mu muryango wacu na mama ,kuko nijye twari turi kumwe nabo bashiki banjye tubona naka karumuna kacu gatoya ka gakobwa nyine,kaje icyo gihe hari n’undi mu cousine ugafite mubyara wacu.

Leonce: Araza, atugeze iruhande nyine kubera ko twacaga ahantu hato byasabaga ko dutegereza ko bose baza, baraza barinji tukajya ducamo ntegereza ko bose bacamo, kuko na ni ni nari umuhungu nabarushaga kwiruka, ndavuga nti ngende mba mba nsa nuba ,encourage kugirango babashe kwiruka bashiki banjye bakuru bari babyibushyeho gato,badashobora kwirukanka neza,nuko mama we ahita yinji arambwira ngo tujye mu gipadiri,interahamwe zitangiye gusunika senyenge zo muri st Andre zishaka kwinjira kugirango baze baduteme,tugira Imana aho ngaho hari hari umuntu wadufashga wo munko wo mu nkotanyi araza aransa grenade iragenda ifata muri senyenge iraturika twese turaryama,ariko aratubwira ngo mukomeze mwirukanke,muce atwereka nyine ahantu duca muri st Andre tuza guhinguka mu kibuga, ubwo nibwo mama jye namubwiye ati mama areba ahandi aho abandi bose bajya, abandi bose ahantu barimo guca ngwino tubakurikire,mama arambwira ati Dady ngwino hano wibakurikira ,baraza kubicira imbere ngwino nkwereke ahantu tujya mu gipadiri nyine mu gipa mu bapadiri ba st Andrea pana abo mu kiriziya ,nabo bafite inzu hariya ubwo nibwo ,ndavuga nti ntibishoboka,nti reka njyane naboubwo nawe uraza ndabizi koko n’ubundi batwiciye mu kiriziya na hano barahita bahagera,niko numvaga mama we yaragiye aragenda ashobora yinjiramo,twe ubwo turakomeza tumanuka hano ku Mumena,mu gihe twirukankaga cyane twahu twahuye n’igitero cyije batubwira ngodu du tumanuke ku Mumena twaciye mu kibuga turaza duhinguka ahantu iruhande rw’ikibuga turaza duhinguka ku Mumena .

Leonce: Nibwo twamanutse, tugeze mu nzira tugiye ku ku hepfo mu Rwampara nibwo nabonye papa ari ha hepfo nawe yiruka ndi kumwe na mushiki wanjye umwe abandi nabo twari tumaze gutandukana kuko interahamwe zaraje bo binjira mu gipangu natwe duhita tumanuka ahandi jye namubonye nahise nsakuza cyane papa nta umubyeyi n’umwana ijwi yahise aryumva arambwira ngo ceceka ceceka !mpita mubwira ko ndi kumwe na mushiki wanjye nyine ara turamanuka tumugezeho,aratubwira ngo muze muceceke muhumure mwe kugira ubwoba ndabereka ahantu mbajyana,atujyana ahantu yigeze gufasha kera bari abarundi nibo yigeze gufasha nuko ni gutyo byagenze,baduhisha aho ngaho ,uwo munsi urangira gutyo ni gutyo eee !

Aegis: Nagirango umbwire aho ngaho, wambwiye ko ari wowe mu muryango wabashije kuvugana na mama wawe bwa nyuma, wabasha kutubwira ikintu mwavuganye, icyo kintu yakubwiye ? cg se ni wowe muheruka kuganira wenda atari itaba Imana ?

Leonce: Urumva bisa nkaho, jyewe uuu watwuganye bwa nyuma ataritaba Imana kuko urumva ko twari mu gihe wese twarirukaga ariko noneho kuko arijye twari turi kumwe bwa nyuma nyuma yaho twigeze,twaramukontagitaga,tukamu tukavugana nawe ariko ari mu babikira,ariko nta ku nta wundi bigeze babonana gutya amaso ku maso ngo bavugane,uretse ko twamenyaga ko ariho,inkuru zo twarazimenyaga kuko yapfuye na nyuma bafata Kigali ba bakuramo abantu nibwo yapfuye ariko twavuganaga icyo gihe tutara inkotanyi zitazdukura hano ku Mumena.

Aegis: Niko waba warigeze umenya uburyo ki yishwemo ?

Leonce: Eee uburyo Bwo narabumenye ,nabumenye ako nabwo nabumenye nyuma nyuma y’intambara turi mu Rwanda nibwo twagarutse inaha,batubwira batubwira ukuntu byagenze ko ba baciye hariya kuri mirongo utara kuri brigade hano iNyamirambo,yaaa babashyize mu byobo ,bon baramubwiye ngo ngo ngo ngo amanuke mu cyobo ngo arabwira ati sinshobora kumanuka ntari kumwe n’umwana wanjye ariwe mukuru wanjye niwe bari kumwe ati ntibishoboka ntago nshobora kugira ,bahita bamukubita agafuni ahita amumanukana amufashe,bikubita mu cyobo ntago nyine ntago babatemye bo ntago babatemye ahubwo bo babajugunye mu byobo babajugunyamo amagrenade,amagrenade hari abagisamba hari abagize gute bafata ingiga z’ibiti,bafashe amabati,babashyira hejuru,harimo abazima bagihumeka babashyira hejuru babashyiraho ingiga z’ibiti babaturikitaho,babamenaho essence,bashyiraho nama n’amapine,barabatwika kuburyo kugeza izi saha ikintu cyatumye tugira Imana tukamumenya we yari yara akiri mutoya yigeze gukuka amanyeo abiri ya hano imbere niyo yonyine yari afitemo akuma utwuma dufashemo andi menyo abiri nyine,nicyo cyonyine cyatumye tummenya ariko musaza,mukuru wanjye we ntago we twigeze tumumenya

Aegis: Bwira Leonce waba warigeze umenya nibura abantu bamwishe nibura ngo umenye mu bamwishe…….

Leonce: Icyo gihe hari umugabo witwaga Kigingi niwe wari interahamwe niwe watu tu mbega niwe nterahamwe yari imaze kuba iteye ubwoba hano muri Nyamirambo hano muri kano gace kacu,eee urebye ni nawe wabakuyemo niwe wari umaze kwifatira brigade yarakuyemo aba aba sinzi ukuntu sinibuka ukuntu babitaga icyo gihe ariko ntago bari abapolisi bo babakuyemo kuri brigade nyine bo babakuramo aba ariwe ubifata eee niwe nibo babakuyemo hariya n’abasirikare barabazana babwira ngo babajyanye muri st Paul ,nyine ngo barashaka kuba kugiramgo baze kubajyana muri st Mi ri mille colline babatandukanye ,abajya mu nkotanyi n’abajya mu mu ngabo zo kwa Habyarimana,ni gutyo byagenze baba bahita basigara aho ngaho nyine babicira aho.

Aegis: Yes, none n’ukuvuga ngo yaba iyo nterahamwe cg se nabo bari kumwe kugeza ubu ntabwo muzi ahantu bari ? barafuye cg se barahunze, ndavuga abo ngabo bishe mama wawe,

Leonce: Mu by’ukuri izi saha sinakubeshya,ariko icyo nzi ko eee kugeza izi saha nabo nzi nabo nabagize gute n’abadutungaga urutoki n’abagiraga gute kugeza izi saha ntabwo ni n’abahari bari bafunzwe iyo aje gutanga temoignage avuga ko nawe yafu yihishaga ,mu byukuri simbizi uwo jye uwo we uwo bavuga cyane we nta nubwo nta nubwo twri turamubona ,tuziko yapfuye,uretse ko papa we abizi cyane kuturusha,afite n’ukuntu aba acecetse ntabitubwira neza,ariko urumva nyine byamusigaye ku mutima kuva izo saha kugeza icyi gihe ntarongera gushaka undi mugore,urumvako nawe byamusigaye ku mutima eee bi.

Aegis: Ok, tukiri aho nagirango noneho umbwire kuri mama wawe, mama wawe yari umuntu ki n’iki kintu wamutubwiraho noneho ukatubwira n’ikintu udashobora gupfa kumwibagirwaho kwa kundi umuntu niyo agucitse akagenda ariko uvuga uti hari ikintu nasigaranye kuburyo ntashobora kumwibagirwa ?

Leonce: Mama wanjye we yari intwari,yakundaga abantu,yakundaga abantu cyane nicyo nzi yari yari yarize ubuganga,n’icyo kintu nzi kuko yafashije abantu benshi cyane,cyane cyane ahantu avuka kuko yajyaga ku ku kuba vaccina ,kuba kubakingira ku buntu n’iBugesera ariko kugeza ubu yitwa Mukayiranga Donatilla,yakoze no muri san Francisisco ariko yabanje no gukora muri CHUK,ikindi kintu nzi yaradukundagaaa mbega yatwumvishaga ko tugomba kwiga cyane,nicyo kintu yashyiraga imbere yaradukundaga,yatureze nye byiza nicyo navuga mbe si abantu bamuzi nicyo bambwira ,nta kindi nibwo butwari namuvugaho,nicyo kintu nabuze.

Aegis: Noneho nagirango, noneho ndashaka ngo utubwire kuri mukuru wawe ese yaba, yaraguye he ?yapfuye buryo ki ? ni bande bamwishe ?.........

Leonce: Mukuru wanjye we, we igihe twavaga no mukiriziya w enta nubwo yaciye naha nta nubwo yaciye no nzira twebwe twaciyemo,yaciye mu nzira tuvuge ko inagoye cyane,we yagiye ku Kivugiza,kandi deja hari hari abasirikare benshi,ariko Imana twagize nuko kubera ko twigaga muri camp Kigali,we twari dufite umumajoro hari abana twiganye babaga ku Kivugiza ise yari umumajoro urumva niho yabaye hafi igihe kinini aza no noneho uwo mu majoro aza kumenya ko mama we ari ba karumerita ni munsi yo hepfo ye gato cyane ,yamanukaga yinjira mu rupangu,mama nawe aza kumenya ko ariho ari icyo icyo yakoze nuko yamuha yamurekuye iyo azata kumurekure wenda ubu aba yaragiye akajyana nabo basirikare agashobora kurokoka ,ariko mama nawe yarakomeje ara ari insista kugirango ashobore kumubona ,baramanukana amushyira mu ba karumerita ni gutyo nyine yapfanye na mama wa urugendo rwose bakoze,mu mezi atatu yose ya genocide yabaye kugirango bafate iKigali nicyo gihe nicyo kintu cyatubabaje kukobafa baba n’inkotanyi zabagezeho inshuro nyinshi bakanga kubakingurira kugirango bashobore kuvamo bavuga ngo ban go inkotanyi zirabica ,aba yararokotse igihe kuko inkotanyi zagiyeyo inshuro nyinshi banga ku mu kubafungurira,ni gutyo byagenze nyine

Aegis: Niwe watubwiye wagwanye na mama mu mwobo?

Leonce: Niwe ba bagwanye mu mwobo,abandi bo bose twavanye hano ku Mumena abakobwa batatu na papa, bo twarajyanye mu nkotanyi kuva tariki ya mbere z’ukwa gatanu inkotanyi twari tu twari turi mu maboko y’inkotanyi ,

Aegis: Ibyo aribyo byose mukuru wawe, abantu baba bareranywa cg se abantu bakurikirana cg se mwenda no kungana ibyo aribyo byose ntabwo mwari muri bato cyane ,mwari mu maze igihe kinini mubana murugo nk’abana hari ibintu wenda ushobora kuba umwibukiraho uvuga uti twarakinanaga,twajyanaga kwiga,hari ibintu bitajya bipfa kukuvamo wibukira kuri mukuru wawe,twagirango nabyo ushobore kuba wabitubwira

Leonce: jyeweIkintu ntashobora kumwibukiraho nuko igihe twigaga ,twariganaga urumva twigaga ku bigo bimwe,nabaga ndi kumwe nawe kera nari umunyamahane cyane nkunda kurwana nkajya nkajya ndwana n’abana ba basirikare,we akajya aza akambwira ati Dady ntago ari byiza, kurwana n’abana ba basirikare ugomba kwihangana kukokubera deja barakuzi ko uri umututsi, mu kigo twabaga twicaye turi abatutsi turi umwe turi babiri,akambwira ati jya uba jya ubihanganira kuko numvaga nta numwe wankoraho nta numwe wamvuga abenshi nta nubwo babaga bandusha nk’ingufu kuko bakuru babo bakaza bika bikatugaruramo urugomo rwo guhora turwana bya byi bya cyana we akaza akampumuriza,akambwira ati Dady jya wihangana jya ubihorera igihe kinini akaza no kundeba kugirango ntarwana igihe cyo gutaha igihe cyo kugira gute akaza akanyegera akampuriza nyine tugataha yara yaracishije make ,yari yarakundwaga yari amaze ukuntu yarakundwaga n’abantu.

Aegis: Reka noneho tugaruke ku kintu cy’ubuhunzi muri st Andre ugerranyije nk’umuntu wabayemo hagiye haba ibitero byinshi byo kuza guhiga abantu bari barahungiyemo,wangereranyiriza ukavuga uti aha hantu hahungiye aba Bantu aba naba bangana gutya,ibitero bi baye bica aba hasigara aba ,gerageza ungereranyirize abantu baba barabashije guhungira muri st Andre abahaguye nababashije kuharokokera

Leonce: Si,ngereranyije n’ahandi twagize Imana kuko abanshi,abenshi nyine uwagiraga ni kwakundi nyine buri umututsi wese yishwe,ariko uuu twebwe nkubwo ngubwo iyo aza kuba bata batavuga ko turi kumwe n’abahutu byari kuba birangiye, byari kuba birangiye kubera ko ku Kivugiza ho barahamaze,harimo aba oncle bacu ,harimo aba aba abaturanyi nyine beza,uu abantu dufite icyo dupfana benshi,ariko nka hano twebwe ku kiriziya nizo Mana twagize, urumva nta twashoboye gusohoka hafi ya twese,ntitwapfiriye mu kiriziya,ariko iyo mwahuriraga mu nzira nyine bamaze kukubona bagutandukanyije,bahitaga bakwica, cyane cyane ku Bantu bakuru kubera kuko ku bana ntago byapfaga kuba byoroshye , uuu n’ukuntu bayabaga bimeze,ariko abakuru bo wageraga mu muhanda dutandukanye gatoya bahitaga bamwica uuuh

Aegis: Muri icyo gihe cyose abantu barahungiye hariya niko ibintu byagendaga?

Leonce: Niko byagendaga ,barabishe,abashoboye aba aba abashoboye kugera deja nk’abaje batinze,abantu bose baje igihe nyuma yacu abenshi babaga barabatemye,mbega baramutega atarapfa kubera byari biki bikihuta ari le sept tariki ya karindwi, bashaka ku gutema abantu bakanahunga bavuga ko ari inkotanyi ziri ku Mumena ,bumvaga amasasu bakiruka bataramenyera,ni gutyo rero byatangiye bime bi ba ba abantu baje inyuma y’igihe twe twinjiriye mu kiriziya bose hafi ya bose rero barapfuye,barabatemaga ,abandi igihe cyo kwirukanka,urabyumva abo babaga batemye noneho bahitaga babarangiriza rimwe kuko babonaga ko ari n’abatutsi ,uuh

Aegis: Urabona hariya mu bigo bya abihayimana kenshi na kenshi n’ahantu hatakundaga kubahukwa, haba na leta ndetse n’abasirikare, ntago bakundaga kwinjiramo nkuko binjiraga ahandi, nagirango nkubaze ese ukurikije abantu baba barahungiyemo ubu ryo interahamwe zajyaga ziza cg n’abasirikare bazaga ubwo nagirango nkubaze ese abantu bihayimana bari barimo hariya muri stAndre haba hari ikintu bigeze gukora nibura ngo bashake uburyo ki bafasha abo Bantu bahungiyemo cg babafasha kubarokora? Nagirango umpe image muri rusange y’icyo yenda abihayimana baba baragerageje gukora kugirango yenda abantu baticirwa muri kiriya kigo.

Leonce: Jye mbona abantu bihayimana, nta kintu kinini bigeze bakora kugirango tudapfa, kubera ko ntanicyo, wabonaga nta kintu tubabwiye kereka wenda nk’umuntu babaga baziranye bari inshuti cyane niwe bashoboraga kugira, niwe bashoboraga gukiza, nkubwo ngubwo mama we wenyine niwe washoboye kwinjira muki mu nzu y’abapadiri muri st Andre wenyine, nta wundi muntu washoboraga kujyamo, sinzi impamvu niba ariko ahari icyo gihe yari mu ba mama benshi bize ii? Simbizi kubera ko yari afite connaissance nabo bantuza, nicyo cyonyine gishobora kuba cyaragize cyara cyaratumye agera aho ngaho ariko aba abantu nubwo uwo mupadiri deja nabonaga ko atabishaka ko ngo ashobora kunkiza,nta kntu na kimwe bakoze,nta kintu bakoze,nta nubwo niyo bang ko binjira basi ukabona ko babangiye do bangiye interahamwe ko zinjira mu kiriziya ariko nta kintu nakimwe bigeze bakora kugirango ubone ko banze ko interahamwe ziinjira,byabananiye,bagize icyo bakora biakabananira ,nta kintu na kimwe twigeze tubona? Nta na kimwe kuko nta n’igihe cyari kimaze tuvuye hanz etuvuye gusenga,uu

Aegis: Noneho usibye wenda ibyo muri ibya hano muri st Andre ibyo aribyo byose mu kuhava cg se mukuhajya ushobora kuba warabonye ubwicanyi ahantu hirya no hino hicirwaga abantu, haba hari ahandi hantu wigese ubona n’amaso yawe yaba interahamwe cg se abasirikare barasa abantu cg se babica, ugire ikintu ubitubwiraho unatubwire na buryo ki wabonaga babica niba warigeze kubibona n’amaso yawe.

Leonce: Jyewe mu byukuri nta natago nigeze mbona,twebwe twarirukanse ntabwo nigeze mbona ahantu bica umuntu na rimwe,nta na rimwe nigeze byumva nta rimwe byigeze bimbaho,ariko cyakora icyo nziko baza kudushaka jyewe na na n’aahantu twari twihishe naragize,nashoboye gusohoka ahantu narindi,mushiki wanjye yarambwiye ati guma hano batatwica,jyewe ndamubwira nti jyewe ntago nsa n’abatutsi nkawe wowe ushobora kuza bakakwica,mbabarira, mbabarira jyewe ndigendye kandi icyo gihe bashakaga koko kwinjira munzu bashakaga kuza kutwica ngo nibabona umututsi barahita bamwica,mpita numva ko nta kundi ndi no muri quartier batazi reka jye nisohokere Imana zanjye narasohotse koko ngera hanze bakajya bandaba bakajya babasobanurira ukuntu nyine nta kibazo, ndi mwne wabo ariko nyuma nyuma bamaze gutaha harimo umwe wambonye kubera ko nari mfite umu oncle wabaga ku Kivugiza witwaga Gangi,Gangi ya ya yabaga ku Kivugiza,yakoze ibintu byinshi ku Kivugiza,yakundaga gushwana nuriya Noheri wakoraga kuriLTRM, mbega yari azwi cyane mu bintu by’inkotanyi,yibuka ko yigeze kuhambona,yibuka ko mama ma mama ari musa mushiki we,umunsi ukirikiyeho rero nibwo bahise babyuka baza kudushaka ariko icyo gihe kubera ko twabonagamo interahamwe yi nyine yaricaga nayo ariko ntabwo twabaga tubizi kubera twabonaga agiye akongera akagaruka bakatubwira nga arica ariko nti tu ntago twari kubyemera kuko yari aduhishe,ari n’umurindi! Ee niko byagenze araza Dady wasohotse bakubonye mugo mugomba kuhava,turahava gutyo nibwo mu gitondo badusohokanye tugaruka ku Mumena tuvuye mu Rwampara ,naho nacaga ku ma kumabariyeri,ku Bantu bose birirwa bavuga ko batigeze basohoka birirwaga bihisha,icyo gihe nazamukanye nowo murundi , hamwe twacaga ku nterahamwe,abo Bantu bo muri quartier hafi ya bose narababonaga , narababonye ariko ntago nabobonye bica,nababonye bari ku mabariyeri! Ariko ikintu kintangaza nuko bavuga ngo babaga bihishe? Nicyo cyonyine nicyo navuga ko nabonye, hubwo nyuma y’ igihe gitoya nyuma y’ibyumweru bibiri, nibwo na nahise inkotanyi zahise zidutwara.kwanza nta nubwo ibyumweru bibiri byageze n inki cyumweru kimwe n’igice, inkotanyi nibwo zahise zidukura ku mu Mumena.

Aegis: None nagirango nkubaze uko wari umeze muri wowe imbere mu mutima wawe urabona kubura umubyeyi atarwaye cg se ngo akore accident unamurwaze uvuge uti umuntu yararwaye arapfa nkuko mu mibereho y ‘abantu niko bigenda umuntu agapfa azize abantu ba baturanyi cg se n’izindi nterahamwe zidafite uburenganzira na buke ku buzima bwe, ikindi na none kuri mukuru wawe n’umuntu mwakinana ga mwiganaga wakugiraga n’inama. N’abantu wabuze kandi ubabura ukibakeneye? N’abantu uyu munsi wumvaga mwakagombye kuba muri kumwe bishimire uko umeze cgnawe wishimire uko bameze cg n’ibindi bintu byinshi mwari kugeraho muri kumwe none uyu munsi ntukibasha kubabona kubera bitewe n’abantu bamwe babishe batabifitiye uburenganzira cg batagejeje igihe cyo gupfa nkuko dusanzwe tubizi? Wumva wowe umeze ute muri wowe kuba abo Bantu …………………

Leonce: Bya bayabanje kuntonda cyane kubera ko ababyeyi bagiyeeee ntago nari nkuze kuko nabayareka byakagombye nari nkiri muto,nari nkimukeneye mama ariko nta kundi nagi byara byarangoye mukuru wanjye birangora gusigarana arijye jyenyine w’umuhungu mu bakobwa batatu birangora,ariko nageze aho ndabyumva, ngerageza no kuta,kugirango kutababaza umubyeyi dusigaranye icyo nii nicyo cyamfashije nkagira na ba bashiki banjye bakuru bagerageje kumba hafi nka babyeyi na nubu baki bakimeze nka babyeyi twabaye, twabaye bamwe icyo cyonyine twashoboye kugira ariko,ku kugarura isura y’umubyeyi wacu bose bamfata bombi eee,icyo cyonyine ,agerageza kutuba hafi uwo dufite ariwe papa nabwo tukaba turi kumwe cyane.

Aegis: Niko nagirango ahangaha ugerageze kumbwira ikintu ikintu ki hari igihe umuntu agera mu bintu ibintu bigoye cyane nk’ibya genocide,ariko noneho kubera ko ibintu bibi nabyo bifite hari ikintu ubona image ikujyamo wowe ukumva udashobora gupfa kuyibagirwa,nagirango umbwire ikintu kidapfa kikuvuyemo kibi cyane wahuye ncyo muri genocide.

Leonce: Ikintu cya mbere nahuye nacyo muri genocide, buri gihe ntashobora kwibagirwa n’ukuntu naguye ku mbunda yuwo musirikare, igihe inkotanyi zazaga kudufata ubwo ubwoba bwaranyishe cyane, nari narwaye na na naaguye igihumura naguye ihumure numvaga birangiye batwishe kubera kubera ko ko twari dusigaje iminsi mike cyane ngo dupfe, mbega abari basigaye gupfa hari hasigaye famille nari ndimo kandi yari famille y’abatutsi noneho binazwi ko duhari nta nicyo kintu cya mbere kitajya ki kimvamo,nta shobora kwibagirwa buri munsi,naho ibindi kuba narahuye n’interahamwe,ntaho eee nta kindi kintu ki ki

Aegis: Eee Ibyo aribyo byose genocide irabaye irarangiye ,ubu………………………. Ndashaka kukubaza wowe nk’umuntu wahuye n’ibibazo bikomeye cyane ……………………….

Leonce: Nyuma ya genocide ubuzima bwarakomeje turakomeza turiga tugerageza kubaho tugarageza kureba ko twabyibagirwa,ariko nta ntago bishoboka ntago dushobora kubyibagirwa,nta ikintu numva ntashobora kwemera ikintu bahora bavuga ngo tugomba kubihisha ntago,numva umuti Atari ukubihisha icyo nziko si nshobora kubyibagirwa kandi’umwana nzabyara azabimenya,nubwo bambwira ngo sinzabivuge ariko nzabivuga,nzahora mbivu nzahora mbyibutsikiranya , icyo ntashobora kwibagi mbega kidashobora kumvamo nagombye no kumva cyane sinibaza ukuntu umuntu yaba yarakwiciye yamara kukwicira bakakubwira ngo ubyibagirwe ubisibe mu mutwe,ntago bishoboka byo ntibishoboka nta nubwo tubi na ntago twabirenzaho,numva ko ahubwo bakwiye kwemera ko byabayeho kandi umututsi ari umututsi n’umuhutu akaba umuhutu ariko noneho ko badashobora kugira bakamenya uburenganzira bwabo kuko n’ubundi umuntu ya yaba yarakoze genocide bakamushyira mu nagndo akongera akica, nukuvuga ko se ko ku kuki barangiza bakavuga ngo ngo n’abatutsi barishe? Ubwo biratunaniye se? Buri gihe umuntu akora ingando yakora ingando akagenda akongera akica? Ukumva ngo ari mu bacengezi? N’ikintu gitangaje ‘ikintu numva ko aho kugirango bavuge ngo barabihisha kandi ibintu bihari umututsi n’umututsi umuntu umwana ejo bundi umwana yarantangaje, nahuye n’umwana arambwi ise yakoze genocide, umwana ni mutoya afite imyaka nk’icumi! Sinzi bintu ya ya umukecuru yamukoreye aravuga ngo kwanza genda wa gikecuru we ufungisha ngo abantu! Nkuwo nguwo deja aba azi icyo aricyo! N’ukuvuga ko N’ibintu bidashobora guhishwa ahubwo histoire igomba kuku kumenyekana ibyabaye bigomba kuba, byarabaye ariko noneho kandi bikanavugwa! Buri muntu akamenya agciro ka mugenzi we! Ntaho ibyo ku batu tuta turabababarira, batu baba bifata nkuko babibonye nkuko babishaka, nicyo kintu cya mbere kitubabaa nta kindi. Niba badusaba ko tu tubababarira natwe badukorere ibishoboka byose kugirango badashobora kugira numva ko aribyo byiza ikintu cya mbere kigize

Aegis: Leonce ,nagirango nkubaze mwaba mwarigeze mushobora gushyingura abo Bantu banyu bitabye Imana

Leonce: Twa twarabashyinguye,twashoboye kubabona,twashoboye kubona mama , byo mama twamubonye twabihagararaho twaramubonye, mu gihe abandi bo batigeze bamu babona ababo nta mwenda wari urimo nta kintu na kimwe kindi cyari kirimo byose byarahiye n’amagufa yaba yaragize yarabaye nk’itaka ,kubera gushya ariko mama we twaramubonye twamushyize ku Gisozi ku rwibutso nibyo dushimira Imana ni nabyo bidushimisha cyane, eee

Aegis: None mwumva abantu bacu cg se abantu banyu bashyinguye nkuko mwabashyinguye cg se harimo nabatarabasha kubabona ngo babashyingure ese uburyo bashyinguyemo nibwo buryo cg se nib ataribwo buryo mwumva bashyingurwa bate cg se nyuma yo gushyingurwa mwumva abantu bacu bakwibukwa bate?

Leonce: Byo kuburyo bashyinguwemo bwo bwo ni bwiza turabwishimira nibwo buryo bwiza kuko ushobora no kuvuga ngo ugiye no kumwishyingurira nyuma y’imyaka mike agasibangana,mbega irimbi rikaza guturwamo kandi wari wamushyinguye,nkuko bijya bigenda nyine iyo imyaka igenda igira ariko urwibutso rwo ndumva ari byiza cyane ku Bantu ba abana bazahora babyibuka,bazahora babimenya,bazabyumva ibyo twaciyemo nta nubwo ntabwo ari ngombwa kuku bwira ngo dore hano hahoze irimbi nicyo kintu cyonyine cyiza kandi tuzanagerageza kuhabereka aho bari kuko aho tuba twamushyize tuba tuhazi,eee nibyo ndumva bashyi bashyinguye neza kandi turabyishimiye.

Aegis: Leonce wumva uramutse ubonye cg se umenye umuntu wishe umuntu wishe abantu bawe witeguye kubabarira umuntu wishe abantu bawe?

Leonce: Numva si kumubabarira kundi bon kumubabarira jye numva namubabarira ariko nkumvabibi biciye mu buryo! Biciye mu buryo bwiza twumvikanyeho, ese ese koko arabyemera? Nabanze anabyemere abinyemerere ko yanabikoze, ntago babyemera kugeza izi saha nta numwe ubyemera nta numwe wishe? Abishwe bo sinzi nababishe, icyo nziko bo yaba we yaba jyewe twarihishaga kandi twese twarahigwaga, u urumva n, ikintu gitangaje biragoye kugirango tuzababarira gute batanabyemeye? Ntago bishoboka jyewe wenda urenzaho ariko ntago umutima wokubabarira turawufite, twanawugira ntago bazabagarura? Barabishe? Ba na nibanabitwemerere numva icya mbere burya iyo umuntu mwicaye mukavugana neza ushobora kumwumva, wenda niyo yanakubeshya akakubwira ko hariho pression ya ushobora kubyumva ariko yanabyemeye! Ariko ntago barabihakana ntibabyemera? Jye bindi kure kugirango mpite mu mubwire ako yabyemeye kubera ko ndi guca ku ruhande urabizi ko yamwishe ugashaka preuve? Nta camera zari zihari? Nta kintu cyabyemezaga nta kintu gishobora kubyemeza! Cyeretse ufite basi nk’abantu batanu cg batandatu babyemeza? Kandi nabo barihishaga?n’iki gihe barakubwira ngo bana bana kuroga banakugirira gute kugirango udashobora kubivuga? n’ibintu bigoye?n’ibintu bigoye kugirango ushobore kubabarira umuntu yabanje no kukugora biragoye!

Aegis: Nagirango mu minota umbwire mu magambo make icyo wabwira abacitse ku icumu muri rusange n’iki wabwira abana bazagukomokaho igihe bazaba bakubaza bati ko nyogokuru tutamubona ,oncle ko tutamubona n’ibindi n’ibindi n’iki se wa wumva wazaraga abana bawe igihe uzaba uri kumwe n’umuryango wawe ? mu gihe kitarenze iminota itatu.

Leonce: Bon,jyewe icyo numva abana banjye igihe cyose nzababwiza ukuri nzababwira ibyabayeho,nzababwiza ukuri igihe tugezemo n’uguhitamo ntago ari ntuza icyo nziko nzababwira kandi sinzabahisha?ntago nzabahisha nzababwiza ukuri mbabwire icyo baricyo! Sinzakibahisha? Mbabwire ukuntu ibintu bimeze ubundi ubuzima numva ko na aba aba abacitse ku icumu bose numva nabaha sinzi numva nababwira ngo pole bihangane bakomeze babe abagabo bakurikize abo ababyeyi babo bakurikize wenda ni niba ari n’abakuru bakurikize abasekuru babo ibintu nk’ibyo, bashobore kuba abagabo,bashobore gukurikira , bashobore kwiga ,mbega tugerageze turebo ko twabirengaho kugirango dushobore ko kongera kwiyubaka kubera ko igihe tugezemo n’ukwiyubaka kandi tugomba kubaho kandi igihe ubuzima bura bwarakomeye ntago ari nka mbere

Aegis: Kongera kumva ko nyuma y’ibyo byose ubuzima bushobora gukomeza?

Leonce: Bushobora gukomeza; n’icyo cyonyine nababwira kuko deja niho tujya! Eeee nidukomeza kugira ku bagerageze ku ku kubirenzaho niko nabivuga kukontago bashobora ku babyibagirwa ariko tugerageze kubirengaho dushobore kuba twakongera kwiyubaka ;nta kindi na na h’ Imana ntakundi nabivuga

Aegis: Murakoze

Leonce: Namwe murakoze cyane.