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CollectionsOral Testimony of KANAMUGIRE Philippe

Oral Testimony of KANAMUGIRE Philippe

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  •  MISSING: Kanamugire: Many suggested postponing the meeting to another day or the following weekend after which a Monday would be off. May be that other time anger would have subsided. We left and went back home. We fixed another weekend after which a Monday was a day off. We spent three days and nights in the seminary. We talked for a long time about the issues of the Manifesto that I just was telling you. We showed them that it was a story they had imagined whereas they knew it was done by white men. After we had checked each and every accusation and showed the truth, we agreed on it. A man called Gitera raised his hand. He was the chairman of APROSOMA. He first thanked people present at the meeting of course and said: "I thank you for the frank mood we have worked under by revealing all the truth". He added: "I shouted louder than anyone did. I promise you that I am going to apologize to all Rwandans and in writing". All along the three days, Kayibanda never suggested a thing or asked a question. When Kayibanda raised his hand, the chairman let him speak. He stood up and said: "I do no share Gitera's opinion". Simon Munyakazi, the chairman, said: "no, you do not have to share his opinion. He just gave a point of view of his. Give your own. You know what we want. We want to solve current problems". Kayibanda said: "I was already expecting this. I know that no one has won over a Tutsi in discussion". Simon Munyakazi (it is exactly one course; they had been in the same class) told him: "I do not understand, as a person who studied philosophy, how can you make an assertion without a proof! You are a disgrace to us." Kayibanda felt humiliated and said: "I only mean one thing; these problems in Rwanda will only end in bloodshed as for the French Revolution". People who were present were surprised and laughed. We said that probably he was drunk. Father Arvut, the Rector of the seminary in the time, men reddened with anger in the white men's way. He told him: "you behave as a politician; you will die as a politician. Your blood will be shed along with one of your compatriots you want to shed". We thought that word was coming from the bottom of his heart, that he really meant to blame him. Later, I guess, no it is true by the way! ... we knew that he had told him so because he was revealing their secret before the plan was translated into action. I knew this from an article I read in a newspaper, rather a would-be newspaper (I do not remember it) where he was defending PARMEHUTU and KAYIBANDA. I forgot something; due to lack of… allow me to go back a little bit. APROSOMA that was the one to shout to much, as Gitera recognized himself used to publish articles of bitter words attacking the King. Those articles were published in Kinyamateka of Kabgayi; a newspaper of the bishop's palace.He had even once published an article in which he was comparing Rudahigwa to a very big serpent around which were many other small snakes, you know … things of that kind. People became very angry and told Rudahigwa that he was letting himself be disgraced. They proposed him to let them kill the author assuring him it would remain unknown to the public. Rudahigwa told them: "be wise! You should not kill the offender (Gitera) but what pushes him to offend". He then made them understand that the real problem was not Gitera but those who were using him. Rudahigwa said: "forget about it". I have told you that the manifesto appeared with accusations. Rudahigwa abolished patron-client system. He had tried before but had failed. He called all other leaders; a chief with his one deputy-chief as well as judges. On the very first day of the whole week we spent there, we failed to understand each other. The chiefs said: "why those white men's accusations? Did we prevent them from appointing whoever they wanted?" Rudahigwa told us:" you already know the agenda. You also know the situation. I have called you to find a final solution to those problems. Be it a month or a year, you have to find one. I do not want to chair this meeting so that you may not say you decided because of my dictatorship". He appointed Tharcisse Zimurinda to chair the meeting. It was opened. We were in groups; our chiefs formed their group and we formed ours. Deputy-chiefs suggested resigning so that they might vote whoever they wanted. The chiefs also told us: "you are messing up our situation! If you are dismissed, you can find other occupations. For us, this is the only job we can handle. Our point of view rather is this: what you can do is to ask for pension for some of us who are old or tired and substitute them for whoever is to be appointed. 
  •  Kanamugire: Whoever is not performing well will be replaced by former deputy-chiefs instead of resigning while we are still competent". In brief they wanted a smooth change, smoothly coming change, what was a bright idea! We told them that they did not understand the reality behind. We said: "We won't have time for that". 
  •  A week later, RUDAHIGWA came and asked the chair person of the meeting called ZIMURINDA about the situation. He answered him that they were as tired as horses that refused to walk anymore. Considering their tiredness, the King RUDAHIGWA ordered them to go home and come back after having taken a rest. We went home and come back there after a week. But nothing improved. RUDAHIGWA came and asked ZIMURINDA about the situation. ZIMURINDA replied once again that nothing was improving. 
  •  RUDAHIGWA grazed at us and said "you know what; Rwanda had its people dead and forgot to mourn for them! How come that there is no grown man of you all? Let me tell you something, the Rwandan proverb says that a noble man never flees definitively. Let me explain this to young people who do not understand it. This means that I would rather choose to stay away instead of being chased. Go on with your futile discussions, I'm leaving." He went out… 
  •  After the king had left, ZIMURINDA asked who was holding the speech. The chief RWABUKUMBA raised his hand and said: "I want to talk now before I forget, though it is not as usual but now the floor is mine. Stop doing anything else and write that we resign by now" 
  •  Recalling the proverb RUDAHIGWA had told them, he revealed them that they would be forced to resign with a bad end. Hearing this all agreed on resignation. When RUDAHIGWA came back, he found that we had decided to resign. Then, he told us to close the meeting at once and go on the following day. He offered a drink. We ordered liqueur what was served. 
  •  When RUDAHIGWA took a glass for cheers, he said "I am worried that some of you made a unwilling decision without understanding that the enemy did not want this to be reached". We went on drinking, I remember, it was 8.pm. He then told us that we would drink until 11.pm. In the morning, RUDAHIGWA ordered to write the minute and not to be signed neither by the chairman nor the secretary. He told us to sign and approve it. They signed and after we signed. We sent our resignation to the Government. 
  •  There was a man who had gone to look for files which had been said to prove meetings and papers they used to write to HAROI, PERODIN and APROSOMA. RUDAHIGWA told the man "Go and bring them for us to see, I need more proofs than words." The man went and met there a waiter who worked in a white men's hotel. He could speak a little French, but white men didn't know this. Once a white man said "what shall we do now as double meters spoilt our plans? " Double meters they were referring to was RUDAHIGWA since he was two meters tall. 
  •  The waiter told the story to the man who came back and told us the story, and he had brought those papers. The documents were written in Kinyarwanda and French. The King recruited typists to translate those documents. Those written in Kinyarwanda were translated into French and vice versa. We submitted them. After that, we waited for votes to take place but they didn't. In the same time, RUDAHIGWA was soon killed afterwards. As regards his death… I hope nobody can hide the history, a time will come and all the truth will be known. 
  •  After the king was killed, the situation was so bad; it was even worse on the grave and tension luckily ceased. Meanwhile, HAROI refused the enthronement of the King and Rwandans were about to fight. His white colleagues advised him to let them enthrone their King instead of shedding blood. They also warned him that he could soon lose his life, and he finally accepted. You can even read the whole story in the book written by HAROI himself. He says "I accepted the enthronement of the King KIGELI intending to completely cancel the autopsy file". Do you imagine? This is also a second proof. 
  •  The following events took place in RUHENGERI. They first started in GITARAMA when MBONYUMUTWA, it is said, was beaten. Events started at NDIZA, the territory he ruled over. Some days later, UNAR and PARMEHUTU started endless conflicts, and when they came to their objectives they quarreled. Another point here is that partisans of PARMEHUTU were supported by Belgian Para-commando. 
  •  Later, our people went to complain and commissions passed in different ways. A man called Delycenoine completely disappointed us. When he arrived in Rwanda, he was not welcomed. He was contemptuously hosted. Realizing this, he went back in Belgium and stayed there. When he came back to Rwanda we thought he would be a fair man, but he was probably promised something. They might have told him to consider their case. 
  •  He was in charge of…commission there was a Togolese whose name was KASOU who was in charge of BURUNDI. An Arab from Tunisia called LANEMA was in charge of Rwanda. Elections were violently organized, houses burnt down and even UNAR ballot papers were burnt. After that, Delycenvile attempted to cover up what had happened in his report, and others refused to sign it. 
  •  LANIMO and KASOU strongly refused as they had witnessed the whole violence. Delycenvile himself included the following in his report: "even though my colleagues decided to oppose me, we should accept the vote result regardless how it happened in order to avoid the bloodshed." 
  •  Then, members of UNAR claimed independence organized by the UN alone, [and the Belgian mandate to be given to the UN by reconciling Rwandans first in order to get independence in a peaceful climate. After a resolution, UNAR opinions were heard and accepted. And then, the abolition of the Belgian administration would require some financial means. Those white men gathered on one side and told us that if we had money we would do whatever we wanted.] Thus, even though there were countries on our side they were poor. Members of UNAR were told that since they made the majority, independence would be requested and granted to them. They were finally told that they were going to assuredly win. 
  •  Belgians had called out the Belgian representative and he told them that UNAR continued to win. They delegated SPAC who was minister of Foreign Affairs at the time. When he arrived in the UN office he said: "do not exclude us as if we did not do anything, don't you want independence? Give us the time during which you want it to be granted, so we will declare it instead being excluded under such a disgust." They finally accepted what he had said. After that, he went to convince members of PARMEHUTU who had refused independence to say they also wanted it to be granted, and that they could agree with UNAR opinions. He finally told them that they would do what they wanted after declaration of independence. 
  •  I forgot to tell you that UNAR was claiming while being abroad and PARMEHUTU had triggered the so-called Coup-d'état of Gitarama after having abolished the monarchy. The king had gone to Congo for the celebration of independence. In this event, PARMEHUTU took advantage of his absence and ousted him. Even Belgians ordered the King not to come back. You can read all of this in the HAROI's book and another written by LOGIST. There are much more explanations about this event. This is how PARMEHUTU came to power. 
  •  When it came to power, I shall sum up, there were day after day discriminations and killings. You have certainly heard of people who were killed in 1963; 28 people who were shot in RUHENGERI accused of having a connection with the INYENZI attack. This was then an alibi for PARMEHUTU members to eliminate UNAR influential members. They finally shot them as well as members of RADER. 
  •  In 1968 the killings took place again and in 1972 Tutsis were killed on the pretext of justifying the reason why HABYARIMANA intervened as a liberator and ousted KAYIBANDA. 
  •  For the third attempt to oust KAYIBANDA, Tutsis were once again killed. Some of them fled and other stayed in the country. When HABYARIMANA seized the power pretending to have eliminated the bad regime of KAYIBANDA, his politics was extremism-based. You remember his education system which consisted of allowing only ten percent of Tutsi children in schools. And you remember how he separated NDUGA and RUKIGA with his divisionism policy. People accepted this because of the oppressive regime. They accepted it vainly just for survival. It went the same way. 
  •  You remember also the situation of refugees who were in some countries. Apparently, the situation was a bit good for us who lived in Burundi, but there was an extreme poverty in such a way that it was not easy for foreign children to go to school. Yet, we were considered as foreigners while we were refugees. For children to be admitted in a school, he had to get a double mark more than a Burundian student. Rwandan children, who happened to study there, are those who were luckily admitted in some schools, but admission was limited for foreigners. We had to share with foreigners who lived in Burundi including, Congolese, Tanzanians, and Ugandans. Finally, Rwandan children happened to study when Rwandans refugees joined hands and built their own schools. 
  •  You know that Congo gave a chance for naturalization; people were naturalized there. Each regime renewed the naturalization, but naturalized citizens were not treated like other Congolese except few. You know what OBOTTE's regime Uganda did up to delivering refugees to Rwanda, when some of them were killed and other returned to Uganda! Since then, a newspaper called IMPURUZA [Alarm] was created in America. Its objective was to make public the issue of Rwandan refugees and how they can be repatriated and live in peace with other Rwandans. You also certainly know the conference which was held in America; refugees from all over the world sent their delegates, the Republic of Rwanda also was invited, but it did not respond to that invitation. There was no other alternative. 
  •  Inkotanyi who were in Uganda and in Kenya began to create a front in order to see how they could return home because they could not bear the situation they were living. They were lucky because Museveni was fighting OBOTE in order to liberate the country. Young men from Rwandan refugees entered Ugandan army and get trained until when Uganda had a new regime. Then they prepared the return and they made it. 
  •  The Inkotanyi's idea of creating that front came from the speech of HABYARIMANA, when he said that Rwanda was fully occupied, and those who lived in could not even find enough space. For him, refugees had to stay abroad where he would help them to be naturalized in those countries. You can see that, we were expelled from our country! That is why people supported the Inkotanyi's liberation idea. Fortunately, it was achieved. 
  •  Genocidaires say that they killed people in order to revenge the death of HABYARIMANA who was killed by Inkotanyi; this is a pure lie. Considering what happened from 1990's; many people killed in Bugesera and Kibirira my homeland, others killed in Kibuye in 1994… Had they already known the plan of killing HABYARIMANA while killing them? In his own words in Arusha when peace agreement was signed, BAGOSORA said: "I am going home to prepare an apocalypse", had he known HABYARIMANA would die? All these show that genocide had been planned, thought until when it was implemented, until when they committed such catastrophe. Luckily God helped us to get a good government that saved us. In brief, this is how genocide took place. It took a long time. People, who had grown up in that time have heard of it enough. 
  •  There is another point I have forgotten to mention: African writers came here. I attended that conference. There was a young girl, (by the way, excuse me, in Rwandan context, even an old woman is also called a girl) I do not know whether she was married or not. You can guess her age according to what I am going to tell you. Those writers wanted to know about genocide, its causes, etc. That lady said: "I have been here in Rwanda, I am Rwandan, my father is a Hutu, and my mother is a Tutsi. When I was in primary school, after praying, the following was to tell Tutsi pupils to stand up. I stood up among them. Then after, they told Hutu pupils to stand up, I stood up among them also. My teacher asked me if I was too stupid to know my ethnic group. I told him that when he called Tutsis; I was involved because my mother was a Tutsi, and when he called Hutus, I was involved also because my father was a Hutu. By saying this, I did not base myself on anything, it was not because of politics; we continued like this up to secondary school. At this time I was aware of the situation, I did it ironically to show them that what they were doing was not good. That this was a brainwashing, you can see!" A child who grew up in such a situation, seeing where Tutsis were persecuted, even Tutsis could not deny the bad reputation attributed to them on radios, they feared to be victims; why can't that child believe it? Anyway, that is my point of view! 
  •  Freddy: I would like to ask you one question, thank you for telling us the history of genocide and its causes, providing us with tangible examples, but you have not yet talked about your situation in genocide, how you were persecuted… You talked about it in general, but what happened, to you and to your family in particular? 
  •  Kanamugire: As far as I am concerned, 1959 genocide did not reach the territory where I was a leader. Only members of UNAR were wanted. White men ordered people to relieve us of our duties. They invented lies about us, so that they might relieve us. I was on the black list in 1950, 1959, sorry in 1960. NISESE was the Administrator of this Territory, he told… that white man… I have forgotten something which is very important; when the situation had changed, UNAR had got power and gained a huge number of adherents. What was called a state of exception had been set. 
  •  They set a military Government and they entrusted it to LOGIST. He did whatever he wanted, without consulting BRUSSELS, he had got their permission. He told that white man to dismiss me. The white man asked him how he could dismiss an elite person. He told him to go and invent lies and dismiss me. I was a leader in Burega. He came with people he had chosen to invent lies, and accuse me. They went in the forest. 
  •  I had dismissed leaders in my territory because they had not been paid and to survive, they were had received corruption; one could be given bananas, beer, etc. so that in return he protect his client from going to work. Other people claimed for that, they came to tell me and I proposed them to come and seat, and discuss this problem, then talk about it in the sous-chefferie meeting then and agree on it. They accepted that I had to lead without my auxiliaries leaders. I dismissed all of them. I proposed them to meet on every Friday and discuss the next weekly program. To remind them the day, I promised them to appoint a drummer as an alarm. Those who were invited went to call others; many people came without having information. That white man brought his interpreter; he had realized that I could not interpret his speech. 
  •  His interpreter said that I wanted to hand over Hutus and be exterminated by Tutsis. Before I spoke out a word, all Hutus who were around, asked him to show them who had said that. The Administrator called them, they did not come, and he threatened them to imprisonment if they refused to go. Three men came and took them, they were going to beat them, but the Administrator forbade them. He said that they were lying. 
  •  The Administrator came (he told me to participate in meeting), then told me: "Philippe, I am not happy, there is a white man who wrote that none can really know what is a Tutsi; considering how I was trusted in you, I am disappointed because of what they said of you". I asked him what this was. He told me to wait and see. He went and played a trick, and then he said that he had revealed the truth. He told them to stop. He told LOGIST: "can you see that it is a scandal! That man is not indifferent to his people". It was true because within the whole year, I had not reported anyone to tribunal; I had told them to deliver to me whoever I report. Then LOGIST told him that he was stupid, he was considered so, he told him: "summon him and jail him, then go to relieve him of his duties". 
  •  He did it; he summoned me, I came and we took different ways, when I arrived to the office, they told me that he was there. He told me to come the following day. The following day, I went back to the office in the morning, he was there. There was a shopkeeper; he owned a small shop in the place I had told them to build shops in order to find easily where to buy salt, soaps, etc. instead of covering miles. The shopkeeper's name was BAGOSORA, a Hutu. He took a bicycle, he knew that I was living to my elder brother in KIGALI, at NYAMIRAMBO; he came and found me, and told me that I was dismissed. I asked him who was appointed. He told me his name. He told me how that man was appointed, how people were told to clap, how they had refused, then was there to inform me the dismissal. I thanked him. I told him to go and submit to the new authority. 
  •  After meeting that man, I came to see the administrator to his office in the morning. I told him that I had come to respond to his summon the day before, but I did not find him, now… (What a white man said … you shook hands). How are you? He said: "Fine". I told him: "I have known my dismissal. Thanks to God!" He told me to change the topic. That was just political matters. He asked me one thing; not to come back where I was living, I was forbidden also to live in Kigali. I asked him: "Mister Administrator, you know my home, I was transferred from Gisenyi up to here. I now feel at home in this place, that you forbid me neither to live here, nor to come to KIGALI where acquaintances and former classmates are. Where do you want me to go?" He answered: "If Rwanda is limited to that place, go and become homeless! Do not insist, I have even given more than I was supposed to." That was to mean that he should have jailed me but he had not. His typist explained me later that he had been given the order to imprison me. People could know that I was not imprisoned; this is the reason why I was forbidden to live in KIGALI. 
  •  I went to Gosens at RUTONGO. He was Director General of national mines. I told him about my situation; he told me: "I know my colleagues; do not go back there, because they can add other charges and harm you, write to your wife, I will give the letter to my driver and he will go to carry her with your children". Then, they rejoined us at RUTONGO. It is just like that…… 
  •  Apart from that, it was in 1960's that I had asked for…(in order to survive in KIGALI), there were three political parties; MOMOR (Mouvement Monarchistes Rwandais [Rwandan Monarchist Movement]. Its leader was GISIMBA's son, a Hutu. There was also UMAR: Union de la Masse Rwandaise, [Rwanda People's Union]. We had founded the union ourselves at RUTONGO. Then, we wanted to read what APROSOMA was writing. (RUDAHIGWA was still alive) I went to pay to his secretary. He was ill and stayed at the hospital. I found there another man who died later after our return from refuge. 
  •  NYAMPIRIMA was also a patient in RUTONGO hospital; it was a famous hospital. There was an expert Doctor. When I went see them, (they were lying on their beds) they said: "if APROSOMA goes on behaving this way, it will certainly collapse in the end". No one answered them. They asked for us to found a political party. As I was sitting, I was asked to take… We started by setting guidelines of the party we wanted to found, RUDAHIGWA arrived, he was coming to visit his secretary. He knocked at the door, we welcomed him in. He opened. When I saw him, I stood up and clapped my hands; others clapped their hands where they were lying down on their beds. I reversed the paper I was writing on. RUGAHIGWA asked me what I was hiding, I told him that it was a letter from my secret lover, and I did not want him to know what was written. KIMENYI, RUDAHIGWA'S secretary told me that my lover will finally accuse me, and it was better to let RUDAHIGWA know in advance. I gave him the paper and he found that it was a political party, he exclaimed and told us: "stop, are you really men? Suppose that you stand and speak out mistakes of colonial power and get shot, can any of you stand and speak them out again? You are not yet at that level" then RUDAHIGWA left. 
  •  We founded UMAR (Rwanda People's Union). Then after came UNAR. UMAR was founded before UNAR. When UNAR was founded, we realized that we shared the same ideas, and it had many members. We said that it was pointless to waste our efforts: then we joined UNAR. But we had applied for adhesion to UNAR and we were admitted. 
  •  Then, a caretaker Government was set; They told me that…they told our leader, His name was… He was a medical caretaker, they told him: "your party has been entitled, though we go together in meetings, and meet in conferences, we have the same ideology, and you have the permission, why can't you ask for a representation in that Government?" He accepted. He told them that he was working for a company (he was working in RUTONGO hospital). He told them that he could not have time to run after such matters, rather he gave a proxy to Philippe, He said: "As he is a president, give him a proxy". He was given to me. I went to ask for audience to LOGIST. When I was given the audience, LOGIST was not there, he had gone to Butare, I do not know what had happened there. I was welcomed by POCHET, his assistant. POCHET read the letter I had written to them, we talked about it. POCHET exclaimed, and said: "Do you know that you are more intelligent than we are? To say UMAR is to mean UNAR; and to say MOMOR is to mean UNAR, do you think we are stupid?" 
  •  MISSING: I told him: "Mister, you have our statutes, If we have the same ideology with those parties, what we need is our representation, we will not bear mistakes of other parties, you have imprisoned members of UNAR, isn't it to violate their statutes? We do not won't to be victims of UNAR'S mistakes, do not confuse us". He told me that I was young. Eh! He even asked me my residence and I told him, he checked up my dossier, and he told me: "had you not been too young, you would have occupied a good position in Rwanda. Your mark is good, politics is not grateful! You will finally recognize it when all Tutsis, you will run over hills without shelter like fools. I added nothing. I thanked him for this information then, we parted.You can see that, it had bee planned. 
  •  MISSING: Then I went to Nyanza (my brother was there, he had worked in the King's court of justice). I went to pay him a visit with old men who had taken refuge there; my fathers, my uncles, all were at Nyanza. I spent two days there, on the third day I came back. Arriving in KIGALI, a policeman warned me.He told me: "Be careful, you are wanted! LOGIST want to see you, but I do not know why". I went to my brother whom I told you that he was killed in 1963. I told him the story, and asked him If he had known it before, He said no. He asked me to return to Nyanza and spend there about three days; and come back on the fourth, maybe he would have known the story .I returned to Nyanza. When I came back, he had got information. 
  •  MISSING: He told me that they wanted to jail me. I asked him what I could do. He told me: "Instead of being jailed, you can escape and go to continue fighting outside the country". I responded: "why can't you take such advice? you have been dismissed from your job, why can't you come with me?" He refused. He said: " It was white men's intimidation, they want us to lose our minds and leave the country so that they may do whatever they want; but, finally, they will realize that we are right, first of all, do not go with your wife and children, leave them to me. The situation will get back to normal within a short time".I came back to Nyanza to say good bye to my parents, and to my brother who was living there. I took my way to Goma. Arriving at Gisenyi, There was my uncle who was a typist. I wanted to take hospitality. I gave him my little suitcase so that I could make my way through stones of lava. 
  •  MISSING: A white man called POLARD came, his colleagues hated him, he was accused of being a communist. He saw me, he called me, he stopped his car, I greeted him, he shook my hand and kept holding it, he pulled me. I gave them my suitcase and they put it into the car. I got on the car. We went down up to the office at Gisenyi. He told me to lie down so that they may not see me. We continued. Arrived at his home, he told me that he did not want me to spend the night to my uncle, I was on the list of the most wanted, he told me to stay there. He was going to see how he could help me to escape, by Goma: I accepted. I stayed there. He used to go to Goma, he helped people to escape, and he was working there. I got used to, one day; he helped me to escape. 
  •  MISSING: After one month, he came to see me, and he told me:"I did nothing, Congo has not yet got its independence, they can report you, if Belgians who are here know that you are present, they may tell Congo to arrest you. It would be better If I take you to East Africa; in Uganda". I wondered how I could live in Uganda since I could neither speak Swahili nor English. In addition, I could not live there without my wife. Sorry, my wife had come, he had lent me his car and I went to take her together with my children.We were in Goma, he proposed to go to East Africa, I told him about my worries. He told me not to worry, he had an occupation there.( He had a transit of goods, he was a partner of Belgian company which exported, tea, coffee, pyrethrum, etc) 
  •  MISSING: He promised to find a job for me; I asked to go with him. He took me to TORO; in KASESE, he showed me the place. It was good, the area was hot. I accepted to live there, but my wife and children stayed at Goma. I asked him to pay me a third of my salary and to give the remaining two-thirds to my family. I got a job there. My job took an end because of Congolese who were hostile to white men and ate them. White men asked me to find them a train which could pack up their luggage. A white man who had lived in Rwanda, I had heard of him through history; he was a leader in Rwanda then rejected it and became a colonist; he came speaking Swahili. He unwillingly spoke French, I was lucky, I told him that French was the Language I could speak, I could not speak Swahili. Being astonished, he asked me where I was from; I told him that I was a Rwandan refugee. He I asked me how I had got there, I told him that I had come as they had. But, the difference was that they were chased away by natives while we were chased away by white men. When he heard of this he thought that I could not serve him because of rancor. He asked me if I knew Prince RWIGEMEJO, and other people he had granted cattle and lands, etc. I said that I knew. 
  •  MISSING: He told me what Congolese had done to them; he said that he could not blame them; because it was the consequences of white men's bad policy. I did for him what he had asked for, and then he left.Some of those white men who had took refuge, were cooperating with POLARD. The club in which I was working was closed. I took a car back to GOMA. Congo had got independence; this is how I stayed in Goma. 
  •  I spent some days in Goma. I got information from Rwandans [who were living in RUCURU; we were all wanted. It was like an end. About UNAR, the situation had changed. At my arrival at Goma from Uganda, I was ordered not to look for job.] Members of UNAR, Hutu and Tutsi from Ruhengeri, Bugoyi, provided me with information; then I reported this information to our people who had gone abroad to claim for our rights. 
  •  I was confided to go from camp to camp to collect information from refugees. In brief, to be a coordinator and provide information. I used to go once a month, from Goma to Burundi, from Burundi to Dar-es-Salaam, from Dar-es-Salaam to Kenya- Nairobi, from Kenya to Uganda where there was no leader. Then I handed in the report and came back to Goma. 
  •  In 1965 RUMUMBA and RWAGASORE died, and there was no one to receive weapons which had been promised to them. Then, I went and requested the UNAR to let me look for a job by convincing them that I had the family to take care of. If ever there is any chance for us to do something once more, let me know, but let me look for a job by now". I assured. I started the job by then. 
  •  And when Inkotanyi; I mean Inyenzi [Cockroaches] invaded I had gone to Burundi, but I had not yet packed my luggage. I don't know how things turned around, I had left Goma and I was in Bukavu. Around 4.am soldiers came to my house. They surrounded the floor, and in the morning they knocked at the door. They asked where I was, and my wife answered them that I had gone to Burundi. 
  •  Then, she wrote to me a warning letter telling me not to come back because soldiers wanted to harm me. There was a brother of mine who had stayed in Bukavu. He also wrote to me not to come back because they could catch and report me in Rwanda. Considering that I was then a refugee, I went to report myself to Bujumbura high commissionership. I was given a car to bring my family. This is how I moved to Bujumbura. I spent thirty years in Bujumbura, fifteen years in Bujumbura town, and fifteen years in Gitega. 
  •  Freddy: You have been telling us that Hutus, Tutsis and Batwa are not ethnic groups and that due to someone's social class standing one could move from Hutus to Tutsis. Would you give us more explanations on this issue? 
  •  Kanamugire: Well, according to KAGAME, in Rwandan history, the king KANYARWANDA had children and named them, he called them Gatwa, Gahutu and Gatutsi respectively. Then, it is said that their descendants were called those names due to the fact their parents were Gatutsi, Gahutu and Gatwa. Similarly, such an information can be seen in what is called … (in Kinyarwanda there were clan and lineage) therefore, we can call these lineages. For example, the Bega clan includes a great number of lineages, but they make together one clan, Abega and they recognized it. It is the same phenomenon for other clans. This is how Gahutu, Gatwa and Gatutsi were viewed in traditional Rwanda. Therefore, if an ancient Rwandan were asked about his ethnic group, 
  •  MISSING: Kanamugire: he could not answer that they are Tutsis, Batwa and Hutus. Even today, if you asked an old Rwandan who he is, he would tell you that he is a Musinga, a Muzigaba or a Musindi; a Musindi means a Munyiginya, a Mwega and so forth and they all shared the same taboos whereby everything considered as a taboo was commonly respected. Things related to traditional cults were also shared and equally practiced. As regards what you asked me about changing the so-called Hutu ethnic group to the Tutsi one could be possible as just as a Tutsi could move from the Tutsi social class to the Hutu social class. When a Hutu was rich, he could marry a beautiful girl into the Tutsi social class because his richness allowed him to do so. Obviously, when parents of a girl realized that their daughter was going to marry a rich Hutu husband, they could not refuse her to him. Certainly, I tell you that there has never been any rule prohibiting a Hutu to marry into the Tutsi social class and vice versa. It really never happened. The so called rule was informally promulgated by KAYIBANDA, who once recommended that no Hutu was allowed to marry a Tutsi woman while he had himself married her. Can you imagine! It was like that. Whoever married in this way was said to have become a Tutsi. Similarly, when a Tutsi was poor and married into the equal poor social class, he could lose the beauty attributed to the Tutsi social class. Freddy: Could you give us the current examples of such cases whereby the Hutu changed to the Tutsi? You could simply describe the families without mentioning their names. Kanamugire: Well, there are some families there a Tutsi was excluded by considering his physical appearance from a secondary school at Nyanza, the one I told you. The matter was settled after people had intervened and witnessed that the student was a child of a chief, can you imagine? There are even some Hutu who affirm that they originate from Hutu, but you cannot describe them Hutu considering their physical appearance. The same to the Twa. Don't people say that the Basyete (descendants of Busyete) are Hutu? Can you tell me people who look better than the Basyete? I mean the beauty rather than the nobility. I Want here to explain that all things related to the beauty or whatever may change. There is something that proves that Rwandans belong to one group. The Tutsi, the Hutu and the Twa belonged to the same group. In Rwanda they were about eight clans or so, if I remember well. Each taboo respected by a given clan was equally respected by the Tutsi, the Hutu and the Twa. This is to prove that Rwandans, in their consciousness, were the same people.Freddy: We have talked about chiefs, can you tell us some? Kanamugire: Do you mean the Hutu chiefs? Freddy: I mean Hutu and Tutsi chiefs so that we can have an idea about their names. Kanamugire: Chiefs? Well, sorry, I was not ready but I have a list of them. They used to rule under different reigns of kings, and women ruled as well. You may be surprised to hear about a Twa woman ruling. It happened at Runda near Gihara at Nyabarongo river. This woman is called GICUNATIRO; she ruled under the reign of RWABUGIRI. You possibly know her in songs accompanied by a zither or elsewhere. RWABUGIRI had appointed her to rule over that territory. And when someone was appointed to rule over a territory, be they a Hutu woman or a Tutsi woman, they ruled the whole territory and all inhabitants included. Though they were women, they ruled over men and women. There is another woman whom I do not remember the name, she was a Hutu and this one was in charge of the palace of the king RWABUGIRI located in Mutara province. She belonged to Abahebyi warrior-troop, and there is a long story about it. No, I'm sorry, She ruled over the small island Ijwi when It was still the Rwandan possession. Then, the Bashi came to conquer the land. Rwandan soldiers were very few, and there were only few soldiers who were protecting the king's residence while their adversaries were so many. Considering that they were not enough to fight back, they fled. But the woman refused to flee. She took the bow and stayed shooting alone. Realizing this, men wondered:"what on earth would our role as men; a woman stayed fighting alone while we fled!" They came back due to that stimulating courage of a woman and finally defeated. When Rwabugiri heard of what had happened, he awarded her to rule over Bunyambiriri. The woman combined the territory with the previous one…. All this proves that we came to women emancipation before the white men who constantly teach us about it. Freddy: I still have one question; we have heard your testimony and you wanted youth and other people who are listening to this interview to contribute to the Rwandan history considering that it has been so bad for a long time. According to you what can you advise all Rwandans in general and Rwandan youth in particular in order to change the country? Kanamugire: A piece of advice to youth would be first to let them know the history and after listen to it. Leaders in charge of this matter should invite people who know something about Rwandan history in order to transmit it to the youth. The youth I am talking about refers to men who are in their 40s who were taught the bad ideology in their early ages. And now, it is interesting that we are transmitting this message to the people who have some knowledge. They ask questions and we answer them. From our answers, they get to distinguish good from evil. Another piece to the youth is that even though they may disagree with what is said about history, they have to know that Rwanda as a country belongs to them. We old people are getting older and older and our time is over. They should know that one reaps what he sows. If they fight for peace they will have peace but if they want calamity by enhancing divisionism, they will come to a bad end. They are mature enough to think positively in a bid to prepare for themselves a peaceful Rwanda whereby each and every Rwandan can feel at ease. 
 
Table of Contents 
  •  Colonial History (continued from KMC00018-sub1) 
  •  Ethnic Discrimination (1959-1972) 
  •  Ethnic Origins of Hutus/Tutsis 
 

Identifier mike:Kmc00018-sub2-eng-glifos
Title:Oral Testimony of KANAMUGIRE Philippe
Description:The oral testimony of Rwandan Elder KANAMUGIRE Philippe recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda, with the assistance of the National Museum of Butare, Rwanda. In two separate recordings, the testimony describes the political and cultural history of ethnicity in Rwanda. It is given in Kinyarwanda, with English transcript and subtitles available.
Date:2006-01-12
Media formats:mini-DV tape
 mini-DV tape
Language:kin

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Continues from Part1 of the Oral History Testimony of KANAMUGIRE Philippe.

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