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</mwdata><mwxhtml><wx:metadata><title>Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude</title><generator type="gsmcreator">gsmcreator</generator><indexed>yes</indexed><incalendar/><abstract>The oral testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early
      memories of childhood and family, the worst atrocities during the genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the genocide, and life after the genocide. The testimony is
      given in Kinyarwanda, and English and French transcripts are available.  </abstract><lang>eng</lang><thumbnail src="kmc00143-thumbnail.jpg"/><authors/><publicationdate year="--" month="--" day="--"/><categories/><entity/><includeforum value=""/><protected/></wx:metadata><gm:gml>
    <gm:metadata>
      <id>kmc00143/kmc00143_vid1</id>
      <dc:title>Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude</dc:title>
      <sequence num="1" total="2"/>
      <dc:abstract>The oral testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early
      memories of childhood and family, the worst atrocities during the genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the genocide, and life after the genocide. The testimony is
      given in Kinyarwanda, and English and French transcripts are available.</dc:abstract>
      <contributors>
        <contributor>Aegis Trust (UK)</contributor>
      </contributors>
      <dc:publisher>Kigali Genocide Memorial</dc:publisher>
      <dates/>
      <language code="kin"/>
      <rights>Kigali Genocide Memorial</rights>
      <subjectheadings>
        <subjectheading>Genocide--Rwanda--History--20th century</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Genocide-Rwanda--Survivor</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Testimony--Rwanda</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Tutsi (African people)--Interviews</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Tutsi (African people)--Crimes against--Rwanda</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Rwanda--Ethnic Relations--History--20th Century</subjectheading>
        <subjectheading>Rwanda--History--Civil War, 1994--Atrocities</subjectheading>
      </subjectheadings>
      <dc:creator>NSHIMIYIMANA Claude; Kigali Genocide Memorial</dc:creator>
      <formats>
        <format>mini-DV tape</format>
      </formats>
    </gm:metadata>
    <gm:gplayer type="rtmp" id="video1" src="rtmp://streaming.lib.utexas.edu/hrda-open/mp4:kmc/kmc00143/kmc00143-vid1.mp4" img="" width="480" height="360" style="style1" expand="true"/>
    <gm:itext type="transcript" title="Table Of Contents" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:58" stop="" player="">Pre-Genocide Experience 
      <gm:tm start="01:00" stop="" player="">Introduction</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:28" stop="" player="">Displacement And Discrimination</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:40" stop="" player="">Genocide Experience 
      <gm:tm start="01:46" stop="" player="">Killings</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:21" stop="" player="">Rescuers</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:05" stop="" player="">Victims</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:54" stop="" player="">Bombings</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:58" stop="" player="">Post-Genocide Experience 
      <gm:tm start="07:06" stop="" player="">Reflection On FARG</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="07:19" stop="" player="">My Education</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="33:22" stop="" player="">Reorganization</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:10" stop="" player="">Vision For Life</gm:tm></gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="toc" title="View Topics" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:57" stop="" player="">Family Life 
      <gm:tm start="01:08" stop="" player="">Living Conditions Before Genocide</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:35" stop="" player="">People By Family Relationship 
      <gm:tm start="09:36" stop="" player="">My Father</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:40" stop="" player="">My Mother</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:44" stop="" player="">My Siblings</gm:tm></gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:43" stop="" player="">Discrimination And Persecution 
      <gm:tm start="02:02" stop="" player="">Home Assaults</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:46" stop="" player="">Hiding</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:10" stop="" player="">Shot In The Back</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:48" stop="" player="">Looting Property</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:48" stop="" player="">Mass killings</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:42" stop="" player="">Death Of My Family</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:40" stop="" player="">Shootings</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:33" stop="" player="">Stabbings</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:24" stop="" player="">Betrayal</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:33" stop="" player="">Responses To Persecution And To The Totalitarian Rule 
      <gm:tm start="06:35" stop="" player="">Rescued by The Inkotanyi Soldiers</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:25" stop="" player="">Displacement And Discrimination</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:37" stop="" player="">Resistance Of My Father</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="07:01" stop="" player="">Education Life 
      <gm:tm start="07:08" stop="" player="">Scholarship By FARG (Fonds d'Assistance Aux Rescapes du Génocide)</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:06" stop="" player="">Health and Health Services 
      <gm:tm start="30:57" stop="" player="">Post-Traumatic Illnesses</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:39" stop="" player="">Psychological, Emotional And Cognitive Experience 
      <gm:tm start="31:47" stop="" player="">Orphanage Life</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:29" stop="" player="">Nostalgia Of My Loved Ones</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:10" stop="" player="">Expectations</gm:tm></gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:37" stop="" player="">Message 
      <gm:tm start="35:39" stop="" player="">To The Orphans</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="36:46" stop="" player="">To The Perpetrators</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:51" stop="" player="">To The Survivors In General</gm:tm></gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="toc" title="View People" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:59" stop="" player="">NSHIMIRIMANA Claude (a survivor)</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:37" stop="" player="">MACUMI François Claude's Mother</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:40" stop="" player="">UMULISA Odette Claude's Father</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:15" stop="" player="">François (a victim)</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:23" stop="" player="">KONGORE (Congolais) (member of Interahamwe militia)</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:12" stop="" player="">KAYIREBWA (Rwandan Artist)</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:56" stop="" player="">HABYARIMANA (Former President)</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:40" stop="" player="">EVODE (a friend)</gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="toc" title="View Places" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="01:02" stop="" player="">KICUKIRO</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:05" stop="" player="">NGOMA</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:46" stop="" player="">ETO</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:57" stop="" player="">GIKONDO</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:00" stop="" player="">KINAZI</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:03" stop="" player="">CYANGUGU</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:11" stop="" player="">Camp BUTARO</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:13" stop="" player="">RUHENGERI</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:52" stop="" player="">AMCEA</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:55" stop="" player="">UGANDA</gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="transcript" title="English Translation" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:59" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: My name is Nshimiyimana Claude. We were living in Kicuciro, in Ngoma district in Ngoma zone.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:12" stop="00:00" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, before the genocide… well, I was living with my parents. I was in primary school. I was with my young brothers. I had a good
      life with no concern as far as school fees is concerned; we were living in peace as a family. But later things changed. Bad times came from April 1994; that is when we started suffering due to
      the genocide. People were hunted, I lost my family members; I had about sixty relatives but they all died and I am the only survivor.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:00" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: When they came home to kill, they were very many. Some were armed; others were carrying clubs and many other weapons. So they came home
      and found us there. We were very many; some neighbors had come to hide home because they had no other alternative; they couldn't go and hide anywhere else. Therefore, they decided to join us at
      home saying that, if it meant to die, we would die together. Or if it meant to survive, we would also survive together.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:36" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: So it happened but… well, I managed to escape. They came at around six thirty, a big number; it was an attack of about two hundred
      people. Soldiers came first and then the Interahamwe followed. They [Interahamwe] were waiting to kill those who would manage to escape [the soldiers]. They used to call it ‘finishing
      off'.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:11" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Then … well, some of them were pregnant, all the friends who were there… I am the one who came out of there alive. It was in the evening
      when they started shooting us and they were very many. As I was lying down, I stood up and checked if there was anyone else who survived but there was none. There were only floods of
      blood.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: But because by then I was … well, I had become numb; I couldn't think of doing anything at that time yet I needed to find my way out of
      that place. It wasn't easy to leave that place because I was difficult to find space where to step.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:53" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Well, I hid myself and I was lucky to see a new day. That is when I got out of that place. I thought it was the end of everything and
      so, there was nothing I was waiting for. Then I thought, " Let me find a way of protecting myself and see if I would survive."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:12" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I escaped from them. Even those who came later… In fact, I left a green shirt where I was shot; I was at the back. So I left my shirt
      there and the following morning, when some people came to loot, they realized that someone had managed to escape. They tried to look for me but they couldn't find me. They even declared that
      whoever will be caught hiding me would also be killed. But I didn't hide near there, I continued fleeing. It was a rainy season; it used to rain heavily and several people were fleeing. I
      looked for a way of going to E.T.O [a technical school in Kicuciro] but it wasn't possible because I had no one to help me [get there].</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I tried all possible ways but I failed. Then I started moving around. However I thought there were relatives who had survived nearby but
      they had all died.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:11" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I continued doing that and the war went on, the 1994 war. I would pass through dead bodies, people who were terribly hacked and couldn't
      do anything for themselves. I had also been shot on the back but I would try and walk. I remember the shootings took place at seven in the evening. Later after the shooting, I tried to get out
      of the fence where we were but it was a problem to me as they had destroyed all the behind passages. They blocked the way out so that they could see anyone who would try to jump over the fence.
      They waited and realized that there was no alive, then they told each other, "You can now enter and start looting."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:56" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I was there and they started looting while I was watching. But I was hiding in a corner of the house. After it happened, I entered in
      the house and got a cloth and tied it here behind because I was terribly bleeding. After tying it there, I got out. And stood there at the corner. They came and did all they did … there are
      some things they did not manage to take that particular night. They came the following morning. When they came back that following morning, I had left.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:21" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I suffered… I went through so many problems, the roadblocks, and things of that sort. But because my [last] day hadn't reached, nothing
      happened to me. Later the Inkotanyi saved me. But still, they only saved me because we met at the place where they were fighting. They used to take some people, not everyone and then they would
      advance.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:48" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: That is how I survived and I was taken to the hospital. I was treated because I had been injured. But they only treated the wounds; they
      did not remove the fragments that were inside the wound. In July, the war ended but things such as schools hadn't started operating. Then F.A.R.G [funds for the assistance of the genocide
      survivors] encouraged us to go back to school. We started the registrations and the ministry split us up in different schools.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="07:21" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: So I managed to study but because I had a problem with my arm, which was due to the wound where I was shot at the shoulder, I was not
      very okay mentally. Life went on like that. They were other children who survived. We used to meet there and talk about what happened to us and to our people during the genocide. But days were
      very bad during that period. No one was able to … imagine one killing a person who is not fighting back. It is a big problem; killing someone who can never fight back, it is like killing a
      lamb. The killer was capable of torturing the victim as much as he wished.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="08:12" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Fortunately, the war ended. Life went on as it used to be. Well, life was still very hard but peace was certain. The rest comes slowly
      by slowly. From then up to now life is going on fairly. Well, people get problems like health problems and others but one keeps trying to look for a living. We believe that it is God, who
      knows. When we consider what happened during the genocide and the way some people survived, we believe that God played his role. Because human beings would never manage it without God's
      power.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:24" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Now that you have told us about your life in details, I would like to ask you some questions; could you please tell us your parents' names?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude Eh, my dad was called Macumi Francois and my mum was called Umulisa Odetta.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:41" stop="" player="">FREDDY: And how many were you in your family?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:44" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: We were two … three kids at home. We were all boys. They all died and I am the only one who survived.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:51" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Among all your brothers you are the only one who survived?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:56" stop="" player="">shimiyimana Claude: Yes, among my brothers.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:58" stop="" player="">FREDDY: How old are you?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:59" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I am twenty-five years old.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:05" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Before the genocide, you very well know that people would be hunted, tortured, others would be arrested saying that they were traitors or something
      of that kind; did it ever happen in your home that you or your parents were tortured? If it so, please tell us in brief how it happened?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes it used to happen especially within families. Some people were victimized in that way. Our families would shift; they would be
      living on a certain hill and because on that hill, it would be said that they were Inyenzi traitors, then our families would be forced to shift. I remember how my family was tortured and we had
      no security.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:51" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: My brother used to work outside the country; he used to go on long trips and then Interahamwe would attack us at night; they would bang
      on our door… but we would be patient because the same people we were supposed to report to were the ones to initiate everything. I guess you understand that we had no way to defend ourselves
      apart from telling our neighbours about it. Still you would tell it to some of the ones that you trust saying, "I got such and such problem." But since they also didn't have means to help, they
      would just tell you to do some things… or ask you to be strong, there was nothing else that we could do.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:33" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: We definitely used to get such problems. In fact we were attacked three times at home before genocide started. But they never did any
      harm to us.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:44" stop="" player="">FREDDY: You told us some of your family members would be forced to shift. Do you remember their names so that you tell them to us? Where did they go or where
      were they taken?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:52" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yeah… okay, there was… well I can call him my uncle; he used to live there in Gikondo and in Kinazi before. When they left Kinazi, they
      went to Cyangugu. They made move to Cyangugu and then they came back here in Gikondo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:08" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: During the time when people were suspected to be traitors, there is one of my relatives who was beaten up to the extent that he died
      after going crazy. His name was François. He died in the genocide in Gikondo, an area where there used to be a terrible Interahammwe called ‘Congolais' [Congolese]. His mother [François'] was
      called Nyinakazi w'Inyezi [meaning ‘Mother of Inyenzi'] in Gikondo. The genocide found them in Gikondo. Their identity cards were taken away from them so that they wouldn't move; they couldn't
      even go to work. Whenever they would go out of the house, the authorities would say that they [my relatives] were carrying information to Inyenzi. And whenever they would come back home, they
      would say that there were some things that they got from Inyenzi. They would try to go through their pockets but they wouldn't find anything on them. One could easily tell that there was
      insecurity in the family.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:55" stop="" player="">FREDDY: In brief, your family would be accused of …</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: They were accused of being Inyenzi traitors. They were again accused of having friends in exile, such things. Before 1990, people used
      to come to Rwanda from exile maybe they were coming to visit their relatives. But things changed, they stopped coming. There was no more communication among people since then.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:22" stop="" player="">FREDDY: It was well known that there was a tribal war between the Hutu and the Tutsi. And you told us that your father used to go into exile while your mum
      would stay at home. Do you mean your father was victimized due to going out of the country or because of being a Tutsi?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:41" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Well, he was not harassed because he was a Tutsi but because he used to say things the way they were. Another reason as to why he was
      harassed was the fact that he married an Inyenzi. He was a person who could easily make friends no matter what their background was. Then there was enmity not between different tribes but also
      between people from different regions and other things of the sort. The place where we lived was located in a very bad area. You have probably heard of a place called ‘Camp Butaro'. All the
      refugees who came from Ruhengeri and other areas used to live in that area.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:18" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Could you please tell us in brief… you said he was harassed due to his honesty but … What was his behaviour? The times you talked, what did he say he
      was accused of? Tell us in brief how he used to handle it.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:31" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: In fact what he was accused of, he was accused… First of all he was someone who…did not like the ideas of jealousy or of ethnic or
      regional segregation. Secondly, he was not afraid of saying the truth, he did not fear anyone and he couldn't support anyone he would see doing something wrong. Never! So, they thought he was
      against them. They would say, "Why is it that when we tell him our ideas he never agrees with us?" What made things worse is that whenever he would go away on long trips, he would bring us
      tapes of Inkotayi or Kayirebwe's video tapes. So there was always a question mark.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:22" stop="" player="">FREDDY: He was victimized because other Hutus would say, "This is our fellow Hutu but he doesn't behave the way we do."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: He would tell them, "This is not the way things should be."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:33" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Could you briefly tell us how your family reacted after hearing that Habyarimana's plane crashed?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:43" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I remember I was revising my lessons and my mum was cleaning up my young brother in the sitting room. My dad owned a small bar where he
      was sharing a drink with other people, and then we heard that Habyarimana died. I could tell that there was a change on my parents' faces. By then we were young, and although they would not
      tell us exactly what was going on, I could feel the tension in my parents and in everyone who was at home.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:14" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yeah, that is when they said that, "Let's wait and see if we will reach morning peacefully." All we could do was to flee. I remember my
      dad saying, "It is over now." They were saying we should flee to E.T.O in Kicuciro because it was the only place where people could hide; a neighbour wouldn't hide you, ever. Because you knew
      that some could actually be the ones to kill you. People would kill in their neighbourhoods.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:46" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: The Interahamwe who would do that were always accompanied by an older person to direct them saying, "Go there…" Someone who knew the
      place very well. Therefore, we decided to flee but we never managed to flee in the morning. People got killed that particular night. We were hearing gunshots the whole night. And some of our
      neighbours had already put roadblocks on the streets near our home. That's how they started killing people.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:11" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Tell us in brief… from where he said, "Let's flee." What happened later… if you remember the dates or if it was two or three days later… up to his
      death, what happened?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:22" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I don't remember the days but I know we were … yeah, what happened in the meantime. The morning after the plane crashed, I remember he
      tuned on radio Muhabura to listen to news at around five in the morning. Then some man called Evode called, he was my brother's godfather. As they were talking he told my father how things
      were, he said we had no way to flee before it's too late. Secondly, he said that those who could have helped us were too far. There was no way we would walk up to C.N.D; it was impossible.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:03" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: He tried making phone calls… people who were outside the country would call him asking about the situation in Kigali. They would say;
      "we have heard that Habyarimana's plane was crashed, how are things there?" We were waiting to see what would happen because they had forbidden people to go out of their homes. Nobody was
      allowed to go out of his or her house. But the wise men had already sensed what was going to happen next.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:26" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Meanwhile he received several phone calls from inside and outside the country, people were asking him how the situation was. He would
      tell them, "I am at home with my family but we don't have a way out. People are being killed in front of my house, things are horrible here."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:43" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: A certain neighbour whose wife was my mom's sister. His wife was pregnant; she was carrying twins. He had several other brothers. They
      were all together in the same house. Then my dad told him, "Instead of… there is no way you will hide your wife, you'd better bring her to my home and leave her there. Then the rest, everyone
      should find his own way. Whoever will survive will tell the story." That is what happened, they brought her home and others started fleeing to different directions. As people would keep on
      coming to hide at home, the Interahamwe would also plan how to attack us.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:18" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Although they were making plans, they were also afraid that my dad would fight them. Indeed he tried though he failed; they were very
      many. They first shot our gate; it was a very big gate, they shot with so many bullets and it never fell down. They fought to open the different gates around the fence for two days in vain. It
      was one day in the evening when they finally decided to climb up the fence and get inside the compound.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:44" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: For two weeks things were still the same; phone calls time after time… in that area where we were living, others had already fled.
      People's houses were being burnt and people were being killed. Generally there was no place to hide. Two weeks later… they came to kill us …on a Friday at around 6:00 p.m. I don't remember well
      the dates but I am sure two weeks had passed.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:14" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: That evening they entered our home. They jumped the gate and shot the front door and it opened. Then they all entered inside the gate
      but we had locked ourselves inside the house. They ordered to open the door but my dad said, "Whether I open or not won't make any difference, they will still shoot the doors and open them by
      force."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:38" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Therefore, he went outside and tried to fight the men who were in front of the house but he did not succeed, instead he was shot and he
      immediately fell down. Then other militias entered in the house and ordered everybody to get out. Everyone got out; it was a very long line of people. What I heard at last was people making
      noise. After that I saw people holding clubs and smashing other people. They were of different types; some were shooting and others would finish up using clubs and machetes…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:13" stop="" player="">FREDDY: You did not clearly explain about that long line of people, where was that line coming from? Was it the people who had hidden there…?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:16" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: That line of people … it was the people who were inside the house and the ones inside the compound. They had sought refuge at home. My
      dad would call people and tell them that in case things got worse where they were, some should come to his house while others flee to other areas. He would warn them from fleeing in a big group
      saying that, in case they ambushed them, they would die in a big number. "Send me the ones I can hide and tell the strong boys and girls to flee in separate directions. Don't let them flee in a
      big number." He would tell them.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:47" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: He never thought that such a thing would happen. Mostly, he felt pity for the children and the women who weren't able to run. He thought
      such people would easily be killed. At least a man is capable of fighting or running. Even if they are shot while trying to run they can keep on running only if they are not fleeing with the
      rest of their family.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:07" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: They got us out of the house. We were very many forming a rank and they took us outside. They would shoot every person to get out, I was
      the fifth person to be shot.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:17" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: After shooting me… they shot me while I was trying to escape; I was sitting somewhere where there was a drum supported by stones. Around
      there, there was a small door, which they [militias] had shot and it was open… the militias entered in a big number and I could see that no one was standing at the door. As I was trying to
      stand up, he shot me here [he shows] and I fell down. When I fell down, maybe he thought I was dead. He skipped me and shot those who were around me.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:53" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: At the end one of them said, "This is not enough, open a grenade." They opened one. I even still have its scars somewhere here; I have
      two fragments inside here. As they threw the grenade, I was also hurt but it just felt like an injection so I ignored it. I thought in case I breathed, they would hear me.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:15" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: So, I remained in the floods of blood and kept quiet. My shirt was full of blood and everyone who was lying on top of me had blood all
      over. I just kept quiet. And then they threw another grenade and some of them walked over people's bodies stabbing them with knives. I didn't notice one who wanted to stab me. Fortunately he
      missed and hit the ground on the grass instead. I sensed that it was me he wanted to stab. He again raised up the knife and stabbed me on the shoulder. When he saw me bleeding, he thought we
      were all dead.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:48" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Therefore, they left. I was watching them as they were leaving. I rose up my head a bit but everybody was silent; they were all dead. I
      stood up… One thing I remember is the way I entered the house and picked up the blanket; it was raining and the blanket was very big. Therefore, I covered them and covered myself with a
      loincloth, which belonged to my mum.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:19" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I had lost my mind; I would wonder if I should get into the house and sleep. I was confused. Sometimes people cry but I didn't have
      tears to cry, not even a drop. Instead I would think about what had happened to me and I'd suddenly feel so confused.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:34" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: While I was still there, they jumped back over the fence and got in. I had left my shirt there… it was even becoming dark. They shot
      many bullets to the extent that some of the neighbours fled and others thought it was a contest between the Inkotayi and the Interahamwe. The majority were informed about what it was the
      following day. Several people came to watch us; others were looting our property. That was when I left the place. After fleeing I …meanwhile during all those days genocide was worsening. That
      is what I saw in the meantime.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:20" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Do you know how your family members died…? I mean your brothers and sisters and your mum. You told us that your dad was shot…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:25" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes … my mum was also shot. She was a "born again Christian." She liked praying so much; all I would hear her say was, "Jesus Christ".
      And my brothers were next to each other; they were made to sit in a line like this… I heard people screaming besides. I remember my aunt… there was no other way but if I had had help, she would
      have survived. She died in the banana plantation but I too was helpless, I couldn't do anything yet she was carrying twins; she was pregnant. For her she still had some strength to
      breathe.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:02" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: There was nothing I could do for her, myself I had lost conscience due to what had happened to me. I left her after she had taken her
      last breathe. By the time I left, no one was alive; my mum was already dead. They shot her three bullets; two passed here, and the third one through here. My brothers were smashed with clubs
      and shot on the head. There was a big stream of blood.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:31" stop="" player="">FREDDY: But when you left, you never got a chance to know that …</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:35" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I never got another chance to know what happened next. I came back after the genocide like others… the time the country was trying to be
      reorganized. And I found only corpses lying in the compound. I tried to get people to help me; they are some friends at the same sector who survived the genocide. They helped me to cover them
      with some soil so that one would think of what to do next…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:09" stop="" player="">FREDDY: By that time, would you tell who your parents were or…?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:10" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: By that time, I couldn't identify my parents' corpses … wait, maybe the pair of trousers my dad was wearing or the loincloth my mum was
      wearing. I could recognize my brother from the piece the shorts or the shirt he was wearing. Things like that.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:27" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Were you ever able to exhume and rebury them officially?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I wasn't able to do that. You see those day life was … people had just come out of those problems and the country was just trying to be
      rebuilt in an attempt to see if things could go back to normal. We didn't do anything special for their reburial ceremony. We just got some clothes and laid them inside [the grave] and covered
      them with some soil. Then we ceiled the grave with cement, nothing else.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:59" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Would you please tell us in brief how your life was, from the time you left your home to the time the Inkotanyi captured the country. What was your
      life like… tell us in brief how you were living?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Generally, during the genocide, I suffered a lot because I got many problems yet …</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:13" stop="" player="">FREDDY: From the time you left your home.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:13" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: When I left home I continued to walk. But even as I was going, there were some people who were behind me. They tried to hunt me all over
      to the extent of leaving Kicuciro for Gikondo looking for me; we had houses there. Therefore, they came to see if those attendants were hiding me. They found out that I never went there.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: After the struggle, that is after meeting the Inkotanyi I told them [Inkotanyi] all I went through and where I had been. They helped me
      as much as they could. They asked me, "how are you?" I told them that my problem was the injury I had. They could see it had rotten because I never used to get treatment. They treated me and
      later asked me to go home and start looking for a living. My current life … well I cannot say that it is very good but still I cannot say that it is too bad. When there is peace in the country
      and one is able to sleep peacefully, then life goes on.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:15" stop="" player="">FREDDY: After you met the Inkotanyi… and they asked you to go and start looking for ways to live, what did you do or where did you go? Whom did you live with
      and how would you get your daily bread?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:24" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: What happened later after they left me, I went to Kicuciro. There is someone from my family who had survived but I never knew … when the
      war began, I guess it was one week later, we were told that they killed them. Therefore, I thought they had all died. I went to Remera near IAMCA, where KIE [Kigali Institute of Education]
      presently is.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:54" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Then I met a certain man who had come from Uganda; he knew my family. He took me to school in Uganda. I studied there for a while and
      came back to Rwanda. I registered here and started studying from here slowly by slowly. That is how things used to be. I would meet friends and they would help me because they knew what
      happened to me and life went on.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:27" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I finally got used to it and started living a normal life. I would say that, even though genocide took place, one has to look for a
      living and ignore all that happened. One can never forget what happened but life has to go on.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:39" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Did you manage to finish school?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:43" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Well… I did not finish school but I reached a certain level where I am able to look for a living. But I wish to go back to school though
      I still have some problems.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:55" stop="" player="">FREDDY: What was bothering you while you were at school?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I used to have a problem of headaches. I would be attentive in class but all of a sudden I would get terrible headaches. Another problem
      was due to my arm; it would hurt me so much and I wouldn't…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:17" stop="" player="">FREDDY: You said you suffered a lot. But you never explained very well to us how you suffered.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh… the way I suffered…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:29" stop="" player="">FREDDY: What happened in your life in general? Not just that but also in your whole life from the time you lost your parents up to now. What has been the
      most challenging thing?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:41" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Loosing both my parents? Well… first of all I started another kind of life, which I wasn't used to. Because when you live with your
      parents especially when you are still young, there are some things… there is a certain age you reach… that is when they have brought you up and then you reach at a certain level where you can
      look for your own living. I entered another life that I was not used to.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:04" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Living without anyone to help me in my plans; let's say, getting something I needed. Those are the things that would disturb me. The
      fact that … those are things I noticed. The way I saw people dying and the way I was skipping corpses, people I would run to hoping that they would save me who instead also wanted to kill me.
      Until when I met the Inkotanyi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I remember there was a man who lived here and we met at Sainte Famille. He assured me that he was going to save me. But we reached
      somewhere and I noticed that where he was leading me, it was towards a certain pit. I escaped him and run away; I escaped though crowds of people who were there and he never knew where I
      went.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:50" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I saw different things in life. I saw people suffer. I saw how after the genocide orphans got problems, I included. I got used to a
      different life style. God helped me now I am used to the new life style. There is a saying that, "Akabi ntikamenyerwa nk'akeza." It means it is more difficult to get used to bad things than to
      good things. But later you get used due to the situation. Yeah…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="33:20" stop="" player="">FREDDY: I also know how difficult life for orphans. But what can you do to solve some of your problems?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="33:30" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: What I would do, I would go to some place where I would keep myself busy especially to my former house. I thank God that I didn't rent a
      house. And as far as school fees were concerned, I wouldn't bother much because the funds [F.A.R.G, Fond d'Assistance aux Rescapés du Génocide] would help us. We appreciate their help for our
      school fees because we would go to school saying, "Let's study maybe tomorrow we will be able to improve our lives."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Life went on like that… I would tell some people my problems and some would help me when they could. Until I got totally used to it and
      I grew older, which made me so happy.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:21" stop="" player="">FREDDY: In your lifetime, what is the most painful memory? Something that takes away your joy. What hurts you most whenever you remember it?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:31" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Living without my relatives… no family, which is the most important thing … living without anybody to tell my problems. Sometimes I say,
      "I could get this or that in such a way, but since there is nobody to help me, what can I do?" Then I remember that, I could have been with my parents or relatives and they could have helped me
      in such a time.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:59" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: However, it doesn't discourage me. Secondly I am hurt by the kind of life orphans lead yet they weren't meant to live that way.
      Especially when they are three or four orphans who cannot help one another. It is a pity.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:18" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Well… even if you are an orphan, life has to go on whatever the case may be…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:24" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes, that is true life has to go on. And it is still going on.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:28" stop="" player="">FREDDY: What advise can you give someone like you who passed through such hardships and who experienced a hard life? Those who lead a life like yours?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:38" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: The advice I can give them… first of all I would encourage them to have morale. They should know that in life such things … well, such
      things happened because people had become wild due to bad governance. Another advice I can give them is to use their time efficiently. If one has a chance to go to school, he or she should
      study. If one gets a job then he or she should work. Or if there is someone who has a farm with destroyed houses, he or she should try to build there his or her own house and put there his or
      her own family when they get an opportunity to do so. Any one who has a chance should use it well. That is the advice I can give them.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="36:37" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Something else I would like to ask you is about those who did those things [those who killed]. What message do you have for them?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="36:46" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: The message I can give them… well they should first admit their crimes. After they have admitted that they killed, the next step would
      be easy. Because if you deny that you killed yet they are witnesses who accuse you to have killed, I believe it is better to accept that you committed the crime.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:09" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: If you admit that you committed a crime then your punishment would be reduced or… whatever the case, the truth would be revealed. Maybe
      to those who talk about forgiveness… well some people forgive while others don't. But they should first admit that they murdered people and shed blood. After they admit their crimes, the rest
      will be easier. But since they don't admit what they did yet there are witnesses and several signs that condemn them… I think they should just acknoweldge what they did.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:48" stop="" player="">FREDDY: What message can you give to the survivors of this genocide?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:54" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: The message I would give them… well, they have different categories, because some survivors… their way of understanding things are
      different due to the kind of life they are leading. There are some who found none of their family's possessions left at their home sector, umh! But the families of those who killed his or her
      people are still there living peacefully.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="38:17" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: The only advice I could give such a person is to kind of overlook what happened and go on with life. He or she should look for a living.
      He or she will later find out that everything is possible. However, such a person will never forget what happened, that is impossible. But he or she should just find a way to ignore it and look
      for a living because that is how life is. Because even those who were killing us never knew that we would survive. To them, the fact that we survived is unbelievable; imagine killing about a
      hundred people from the same family and one survives. They never knew it was possible but God proved to them that everything is possible. Umh…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="38:57" stop="" player="">FREDDY: What do you think about the action of commemoration that people normally take?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="39:02" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: I appreciate that ceremony and I find it very good. There is no way one can see more than a million people die and act as though it has
      been forgotten. That is impossible. It is a good ceremony because … whenever that period comes, people always say, "At such a time, disasters occurred in this country due to this or that
      reason." That act of commemoration for those who died in the genocide… constitutes an example to other nations…it gives an example to other countries and they get a chance to judge that what
      happened to our country was terribly wrong and should never happen again. I find that ceremony very important because it helps people to predict our country's future and it helps us to avoid
      its reoccurring.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="39:50" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Today you are leading a life that is different from the one you would be living if your parents were still alive. You certainly desire a better life.
      Whom do you think should play a role in improving your life and for you to get peace at heart?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:11" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Saying that one has a role to play in it… F.A.R.G tries its best to help some of us. The fund tries to advice those who are leading a
      difficult life about how they should behave in such a situation. I believe in life it'[s important to … Not that we should wish for things we will never get or let someone make promises they
      will never fulfill...</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: That is not possible. What matters is that you have a place where to relax or a place where you can host a visitor or a place where to
      throw parties and host friends because you consider the friends that survived as your family. Of course I am talking about real friends; they are the closest relatives one is left with. You
      visit each other and live in a sort of community so that you don't feel deserted. When people visit you, you chat and when there is an idea to analyze, you do it together and you are happy. If
      you are working on a project or studying then you do it together. Such things contribute to our own development. I guess that the best thing to do.</gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="transcript" title="Ubuhamya Bwanditse" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubundi njyewe nitwa Nshimiyimana Claude, tukaba twari dutuye ku Kicukiro, akarere ka Ngoma, Zone ya Ngoma.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:10" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, mbere y'itsembabwoko, ok nabanaga n'ababyeyi nari umunyeshuri narigaga muri primaire, na barumuna banjye. Nabagaho neza kubera y'uko
      ari amashuri nararihirwaga ndetse na bagenzi banjye twari tuva inda imwe, tukabasha mbega kuba turi kumwe n'umuryango neza nta kibazo kiduhungabanya n'iki. Ubwo nyuma y'aho rero nibwo ibihe
      byaje guhinduka, habaho ibihe bibi cyane byo muri 1994 guhera mu kwa kane. Nibwo twatangiye gusufura [guhangayika] nyine kubera ibibazo bya Jenoside, abantu barahigwa, mpfusha mu rugo nari
      mfite umuryango hafi w'abantu bagera kuri mirongo itandatu, barapfa bose aba ari njyewe usigara.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:00" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo hagati aho , ubwo baza kwica murugo nyine, baje ari benshi abazanye intwaro, abafite impiri, abafite iki, ni uko badusanga
      nyine aho twari turi mu rugo kuko twari abantu benshi cyane, hari n'abari babashije guhungira mu rugo abari hafi abari batwegereye, kuko babonaga ko nta handi hantu bashobora kuba ba… ba… baca
      cyangwa se bakwitabaza. Bahitamo kuza mu rugo rero kugirango twifatanye, ubwo niba ari ukurokoka turokoke cyangwa se niba ari igihe cyo gupfa nyine ubwo dupfe.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:36" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo rero nyine byaje kuba, ok mbasha kuvamo, ubwo baje ari mu gihe cya saa kumi n'ebyiri nigice. Baza ari benshi, cyari nk'igitero
      cy'abantu bagera hafi nko kuri Magana abiri, kuko habanje abasirikare bafite imbunda, nyuma y'aho nibwo haje kuza mo Interahamwe, ariko nazo zikaba zo zari zitegereje ko uri bubashe kurokoka
      asimbuka nabo babashe uburyo bashobora kuba bamurangiriza nyine, ibyabo bitaga ngo ni ukurangiza.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo…bon, hari harimo abatwite, ababyeyi batwite, abandi bantu b'inshuti bari bari aho, ubwo ni njye muntu wabashije kuva mo muri abo
      bose. Hari igihe cya nimugoroba, baturasa bari abantu benshi cyane, gusa ariko aho nari ndi nabashije kuhabyuka ngo ndebe ko hari uwaba yarokotse nsanga nta n'umwe, nsanga imivu y'amaraso,
      iki.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:32" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude : Ariko kubera ko icyo gihe nanjye ok, nari maze kuba igishushungwe numvaga nta kintu nshobora kubasha gukora hagati aho, biba ngombwa ko
      nanjye nashakisha uburyo nshobora kuba nava aho hantu. Kuhava byarangoye cyane, kuko ntari kubona inzira y'ahantu nshobora kuba naca n'iki.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:48" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ok! Mbasha kwihisha ahantu nihishe, nza kugira Imana mbona burakeye, nibwo nabashije nanjye kugerageza uburyo nava aho hantu. Kuko
      nabonaga ko birangiye, nta kindi kintu nkihategereje, ndavuga nti: nanjye reka nshakishe uburyo nshobora kuba nakwirwanaho ndebe ko narokoka.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:07" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Mbasha kubatoroka, gusa n'abaje nyuma, kubera ko aho bandasiye nahataye ishati y'icyatsi, bari barandashe hano mu mugongo. Mpata ishati
      yanjye, ubwo bukeye baje gusahura nibwo bamenye ko hari umuntu wabashije kuhava. Bagerageza gushakisha ngo barebe wenda ko bambona, kuko bari batanze n'amatangazo cyane bavuga bati: "umuntu
      turi busangane uwo muntu, nawe dushobora kumugirira nabi." Ariko kubera ko hafi ahongaho atariho nabashije kuba natorokera, ubwo ndakomeza ndagenda, cyari igihe cy'imvura, imvura igwa n'iki,
      n'abandi bantu bahunga, bagira gute. Nshakisha uburyo nshobora kuba nahunga ngo njye kuri E.T.O [Ishuri rya Kicukiro] mbona bidashoboka, kuko hagati ahongaho nta bufasha bundi nari mfite.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:53" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ngerageza gushakisha uburyo bwose birananirana, ubwo nibwo nagiye ndorongotana ahantu hose n'iki, ariko aho hose natekerezaga ko
      hashobora kuba hari abavandimwe, nabo bari bamaze gupfa.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo nkomeza gutyo iki, intambara irakomeza y'icyendana kane [1994] ngenda nca mu bantu bagiye bapfuye, abo basize babatemaguye batari
      bubashe kugira icyo bimarira. Kubera ko nanjye bari bandashe ariko mu mugongo, nkapfa kugenda gutyo gusa. Kuko ndabyibuka, barashe ari muma saa moya, bamaze kurasa, ngerageza gusohoka muri urwo
      rupangu twari turimo. Kurusohokamo ariko bimbera ingorane ndende cyane, kubera ko hari abandi bantu bari bamaze kuzitira aho inyuma, bategereje ko hari uri busimbuke. Ariko noneho hagati
      ahongaho bategereza ko hari uri bukome, ubwo bari bamaze kwica mo indani bababwira bati: "nta kindi gisigaye mushobora kwinjira noneho mugatangira gusahura."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:50" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Basahura mpari mbareba, kuko nari nikinze ahantu ku nguni y'inzu. Ubwo déjà byamaze kuba, ubwo ninjira mu nzu, mfata icyo mbashije
      gufata igitenge, nzirika hano inyuma kuko haravaga cyane. Ngishyiraho, maze kugishyiraho ndasohoka, ndagenda nikinga ahongaho, baraza bakora ibyo bakora n'iki… ariko hari ibyo batabashije
      gutwara iryo joro, bagaruka bukeye. Ubwo bagarutse bukeye nibwo basanze nanjye maze kugenda.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:18" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ndateseka, ngira gute, nca mu bintu byinshi cyane, amabariyeri, ibintu nk'ibyo, ariko kubera ko nyine iyo umunsi w'umuntu utageze, nta
      kintu ushobora kuba. Ubwo…ubwo ndangije, nibwo Inkotanyi zaje kundokora, ariko nabwo bandokora ari uko duhuriye ahantu barwaniraga ariko bagenda bakura mo abantu bamwe, noneho banfonsa
      [bakomeza] bagenda aho barwaniraga.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:47" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nza kuharokokera gutyo banjyana mu bitaro, baramvura, kubera ko nari nararashwe, ariko bavura ibikovu gusa, ntibabasha gukuramo isasu
      ryari ririmo. Ubwo intambara irarangira mu kwa karindwi, ubwo nyine ibintu by'amashuri byari bitarajya ku murongo. Nibwo ubwo, F.A.R.G. [Ikigega Gishinzwe gutera Inkunga Abacitse Ku Icumu
      ry'Itsembabwoko] nyine batangiye kutubwira ngo twitabire ibintu byo kujya kwiga n'iki, tujya mubyo kwiyandikisha, batwohereza kwiga, kuko bagendaga ba disitiribiwa [bakwirakwiza] abanyeshuri
      muri za Minisiteri.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="07:20" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo mbasha kwiga, ariko kubera ko nari mfite ikibazo nyine cy'akaboko kubera urutugu ahantu barashe, kubera ko nari ntara…, mu mutwe
      nari ntara, ntaratungana neza. Ubuzima bukomeza gutyo, bukomeza gutyo, hakaba hari n'abandi bana nabo baba baragiye barokoka, bamwe na bamwe tugasanga nabo bari aho, tukagerageza kuganira
      ibyagiye bitubaho n'ibyo bagenzi bacu bagiye bahura nabyo mu ntambara, ariko ugasanga yuko ibyo bihe byari ibihe bibi cyane. Nta n'umuntu wabashaga kuba…urabona kugira ngo wice umuntu
      utakurwanya burya, byo buriya ni ikintu cy'ikibazo cyane. Urumva nta kuntu wakwicwa n'umuntu utakurwanya burya, urumva ni nk'aho ari intama burya, ushatse wamushinyagurira icyo wumva
      ushaka.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="08:10" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ni uko nyine tugira Imana tubona intambara irahagaze, ubuzima buratangira uko bisanzwe, yego ugasanga hari ibintu bimwe na bimwe
      bigorana mu buzima ariko kuva umuntu burya afite amahoro, ibindi burya umuntu agenda abishaka buhoro buhoro. Eh, ubwo nyuma y'aho nyine kugeza ubwo iki gihe tugezemo, ndabona ubuzima burimo
      bugenda nta kibazo, ok, hari ibintu by'ibibazo umuntu agenda ahura nabyo mu nzira, ibibazo by'ubuzima, ibintu nk'ibyo, ariko umuntu akagenda agerageza, agerageza uko bishobotse gushakisha
      ubuzima. Umuntu akavuga ati buriya Imana niyo ibizi kuko uko ibyagiye bigenda byose muri Jenoside no kuba abantu barabashije kurokoka, numva ko hagati cyane hashobora kuba harimo n'uruhare
      rw'Imana cyane kuko, abantu ubwabo bwo numvaga batari kuba bafite ingufu zihagije cyane gusa hatarimo ingufu z'Uwiteka.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:20" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwiye ubuzima bwawe kuburyo burambuye. Ndagirango, numvaga nakubaza utubazo tumwe na tumwe; Ubundi watubwira amazina y'ababyeyi bawe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:36" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, ubundi Papa bamwitaga Macumi Francois, Mama yitwaga Umulisa Odeta.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:42" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Mukaba mwaravutse muri abana bangahe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:43" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Twari abanaa… babiri murugo, batatu. Twari batatu bari abahungu. Twese twari abahungu. Ubwo rero nyine nibo bapfuye bose aba ari njyewe
      urokokamo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:55" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ni wowe warokotsemo?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:54" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, muri bagenzi banjye.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:57" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ufite imyaka ingahe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubu mfite makumyabiri n'itanu.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:03" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Tukiri mu buzima bwa mbere ya Jenoside, urabizi neza ko abantu bakundaga kugenda bahiga, bagatorezwa, bagafunga ibyitso bakagira gute na gute; ese
      iwanyu icyo kintu kigeze kihagera wenda kuburyo wowe cyangwa se ababyeyi bawe batotejwe ngo ube watunyuriramo muri make ukuntu batotejwe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:24" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, cyarahageze, cyarahageze cyane mu miryango, hari bamwe na bamwe bagiye bazira ibyo bintu, wenda nko mu miryango yacu yagiye
      yimurwa. Hari aho babaga batuye nko ku musozi, ariko kubera ko bavugaga bati: "harimo ibintu by'ibyitso by'Inyenzi hariya." Bikaba ngombwa ko nabo bagenda bimuka, kuburyo no murugo twaratotejwe
      icyo gihe tubura sécurité.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:49" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko umusaza wanjye yari umuntu ukunda gukora hanze, mu bintu byo hanze by'amasafari, ariko tugatotezwa ugasanga nijoro Interahamwe
      zateye mu rugo, bakubise inzugi, bagize gute. Ariko nyine umuntu agapfa kwihangana, kuko abo waregeraga kirya gihe ni nabo banabikoraga. Urumva rero ko hagati ahongaho ntabundi buryo umuntu
      yagombaga kuba yakwidefanda [kwirwanaho] uretse wenda guhamagara nk'abaturanyi ukababwira uti: "twagize ibyago ibi n'ibi," nabwo abo wishyikiraho wumvako bashobora kuba bagufitiye ikizere
      mufitanye ikizere. Ukababwira uti: "nahuye n'ibibazo ibi n'ibi," ariko nabo kubera ko nta kintu bagufashaga wenda bakakubwira bati: "gerageza ugire gutya cyangwa se ihangane cyangwa se gira
      gutya, nta kundi kuntu twabigenza."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:32" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ibyo bibazo byo twarabigize cyane kugeza n'ubwo Jenoside yagiye kuba mu rugo bamaze kuhatera nk'incuro nk'eshatu. Ariko ntibabashe
      kugira icyo bageraho.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:43" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwiye ko hari abantu Bagiye bimura bo mu muryango wawe. Hari abo wibuka watubwira amazina, babakuraga he babajyana he?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:51" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ok, harimo nka mu…ok namwita nk'aho ari Marume, kuko cyo gihe we bari batuye hano i Gikondo ariko bakaba barabanje gutura i Kinazi.
      Bava i Kinazi, bamaze kuva i Kinazi bajya i Cyangugu, naho barabimura nibwo bagarutse gutura hano i Gikondo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:07" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: So, hagati aho rero igihe iby'ibyitso byari bikomeye, hari uwo bafashemo wacu. Baranamukubise ku buryo yanapfuye yarabaye umusazi,
      yitwaga Francois. Ubu Jenoside ejobundi niyo yabatsinze i Gikondo, ahantu bitaga ngo hari Interahamwe ikomeye bitaga Kongore [Congolais]. Bakaba rero nyine uwo mukecuru baramwitaga ko ariwe
      Nyinakazi w'Inyenzi muri Gikondo hariya. Ubwo nyine Jenoside niho yaje kubatsinda nyine, abandi bakagenda babaka ibyangombwa, ntibabashe gusohoka, ntibabashe gukora akazi. Bavuga ko iyo
      basohotse bagiye hanze, baba bajyanye amabanga y'Inyenzi, bagaruka bakaba aribyo babaga bagarukanye. Ariko bagerageza kubisaka ntibanabibone n'ibintu nk'ibyo… ariko ukumva ko hagati aho babaga
      mu muryango hari insécurité.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:57" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Muri make mu rugo rwanyu mwaziraga yuko…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:58" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ko ari ibyitso by'Inyenzi, ubundi bakazira yuko bafite abantu b'inshuti cyane hanze, ibintu nkibyo. Kubera ko hagati ya za avant
      90[mbera ya mirongo cyenda], kuko nibwo abantu hanze bakundaga kuza mu gihugu cyane yenda gusura abavandimwe kugira gute…So ariko aho byamaze kubera ko byahise bihagarara. Ku buryo nta
      communication [imigenderanire] zongeye kubaho hagati aho ngaho.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:22" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Birazwi ko muri icyo gihe hari hariho intambara y'amoko, y'abahutu n'abatutsi. Watubwiye yuko papa wawe yakundaga kujya hanze, na maman wawe
      agasigara ahongaho, ubwo papa wawe yaziraga ko yakundaga kujya hanze? Cyangwa yaziraga ko ari umututsi…?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:39" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, yazira ko… we yaziraga, si nibyongibyo by'ubututsi we yaziraga ko avugisha ukuri, ubundi akazira ko yashatse mu mafamiye bitaga ko
      ari iy'inyenzi nyine ibintu nkibyo. Ubundi akazira ko nanone ari umuntu uvugisha ukuri, ari umuntu ukunda kugira inshuti cyane z'ahantu henshi cyane zitandukanye. Hakabamo n'ibintu by'amashyari
      nyine by'amako; iby'amoko bikajya ku ruhande, uturere ibintu nk'ibyo. Kuko n'ahantu twari dutuye hari habi cyane, ni ahantu mwumvaga bitaga ngo ni muri "Camp butaro", za mpunzi zavaga za
      Ruhengeri za he bose bazaga hariya mri ako gace.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:17" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya… kuko wambwi…wavuze ko bamuzizaga ko yavugishaga ukuri, ariko…uko yabyitwaragamo hagati ahongaho, n'iyo mwaganiraga avuga ati:
      "bariya bantu banziza iki?" Watubwira muri make ukuntu yabyitwaragamo?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:33" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubundi ikintu we bamuzizaga, bamuzizaga ko…icya mbere bamuzizaga ko ari umuntu donc… udakunda ibintu wenda twakwita ko nk'ahoari
      amashyari cyangwa se by'irondakoko cyangwa se irondakarere. Kandi bakanamuziza ko we yari wa muntu udatinya ibyo kuvuga ngo ndagutinya kuko uri umuntu, cyangwa se ndagutinya kubera yuko mbona
      ukora aya makosa wumve ko nyagushyigikiyemo, oya. Sasa bigatuma rero bavuga bati: "uyu muntu araturwanya, kuki dushaka gukora ibi, twe twamubwira ibingibi akabyanga." Byanakubitiraho ko yabaga
      yagiye nk'iyo mu masafari akatuzanira amakasete wenda Inkotanyi iki…zaba iza video zaba iza ba Kayirebwa ibintu kibyo. Bikaba rero nyine byaratumaga bagira ikintu cy'ako kabazo cyane.
      Kuko…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:23" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Mbese icyo bamuzizaga n'uko abandi bahutu bavuga bati: "uyu muhutu mwene wacu kuki adakora kimwe natwe?"</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nawe akababwira ati: "ibingibi ntabwo ariko bimeze."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:33" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya mukimara kumva ko indege ya Habyarimana yaguye, cyangwa bamaze kuyirasa. Mu rugo iwanyu babyakiriye bate?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:42" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Donc, njyewe ndabyibuka icyo gihe nari ndi muri étude umukecuru wanjye yari arimo yoza karumuna kanjye muri salon. Ubwo muzehe nawe yari
      afite akantu kameze nk'akabuvette aho yarimo asangira n'abandi bantu tugiye kumva twumva ko Habyarimana yapfuye. Ariko uko nabibonye nabonye ko ababyeyi bahise bahindura isura, ubwo urumva ko
      kiriya gihe twari abana ntabwo bashoboraga kudusobanurira buri kimwe cyose. Ariko nahise mbona harimo nk'akantu ko gukonja hagati y'ababyeyi, hagati y'abantu donc bari mu rugo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:12" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ubwo nyine nibwo bahise bavuga bati: "reka dutegereze turebe niba buri buke, niba buri buke amahoro." Icyo twakora icyo dushoboye
      ni uko ari uguhunga gusa. Ndibuka ko papa yavuze ati: "tayari birarangiye, ati: igisigaye ni uguhunga; ati: nitubona hakeye ari amahoro turahunga." Ariko bakaba baravugaga ko ubwo guhunga
      twashakaga guhungira he? Muri E.T.O. Kicukiro, kuko niho hantu kirya gihe wabashaga kuba wahungira. Ntabwo umuturanyi yari kubasha kuguhisha ntibishoboka. Kuko wicwaga n'umuntu ukuzi ntabwo
      umuntu yavaga hano ngo ajye kwica hariya.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:44" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: N'abo babikoraga b'izo nterahamwe babikoraga ari uko hari umuntu w'umukuru muri bo, wababwiye ati: "mujye hariya", ariko yabaga ahazi.
      Biba ngombwa rero kugira ngo duhunge, ariko mu guhunga mu gitondo ntibyabashije, kuko abantu iryo joro bari batangiye gupfa. Amasasu yaraye avuga burinda bucya, bamwe ndetse n'aho twari dutuye
      bashinze amabariyeri [barrière] mu mihanda hafi y'iwacu aho hose, batangira kwica abantu gutyo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:10" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwira muri make ugakomeza uhereye mbese kuba yarabwiye ati: "duhunge," nyuma y'aho bya…, niba wibuka n'amatariki, uti: "igihe iki n'iki; hashize
      iminsi ibiri, cyangwa itatu wenda…kugeza ku rupfu rwe byagenze bite?"</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:22" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gihe sinibuka ariko nzi ko twebwe…yeee ukuntu byagenze hagati aho, bakimara kurasa indege. Bukeye bwaho mugitondo, ndabyibuka ko
      yafunguye Muhabura nka saa…., nka saa kumi n'imwe gutyo arimo yumva amakuru. Ubwo noneho haza guterefona umugabo wari utuye ku Kicukiro bitaga Evode, Evode ariko akaba yari yarabyaye muri
      batisimu karumuna kanjye. Barimo baganira aramubwira ati: "sasa rero ukuntu ibintu bimeze, ntabwo dufite ubufasha bw'ukuntu dushobora kubaba twahunga hakiri kare, ikindi cya kabiri,
      n'abashobora kudutabara bari kure yacu cyane." Nta kuntu twagombaga gukora urugendo ruva ahangaha ngo tugere kuri C.N.D. ntibyari gushoboka.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:03" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Agerageza guterefona, abantu bagaterefona bo hanze babaza bati: "ese bite i Kigali bimeze gute? Tumaze kumva ko indege ya Habyarimana
      yarashwe, ariko se bimeze bite?" Arababwira ati: "twebwe dutegereje gusa ko hari ikindi kintu gishobora kuba wenda cyabaho," kuko bari bavuze ko abantu batagomba gusohoka mu mazu, nta
      n'uwemerewe gusohoka.Ariko abari bazi ubwenge bari bamaze kumenya ikigiye kuba icyo ari cyo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:25" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hagati ahongaho yakomeje kugenda yakira amaterefone yo hanze no hino, amubaza uko bimeze. Ababwira ati: "nanjye ahantu ndi, ati:
      ndi kumwe na famille yanjye ariko twabuze ahantu duca, ubu n'abari kwica bari kwicira imbere y'umuryango w'iwanjye hano, ati: hagati ahongaho ati: ndabona ari ibintu bikomeye.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:42" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hakaba hari undi musanzire we bari baturanye, nawe yari afite umudamu utwite kabisa, inda y'impanga. Kubera ko uwo musanzire wacu
      nawe yari afite barumuna be bandi, nabo bari bari kumwe munzu, Papa aramubwira ati rero ati aho kugira ngo, ntahantu uri bucishe uwo mudamu, ibyiza reka tumuzane umusige murugo, namwe buri umwe
      ace ukwe n'undi ukwe, ubwo uzarokoka azabara inkuru. Niko byagenze umudamu aza mu rugo, ubwo abandi nabo bakomeza guhunga ukwabo. Noneho uko abantu bakomeje kugenda bisuka mu rugo, ni nako
      interahamwe nazo zajyaga imigambi yo kugira ngo babe badutera.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:17" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko noneho mu kudutera bakaba baratinyaga ko ibyo ari byo byose muzehe ashobora kuba wenda yabarwanya. Ariko yaranabigerageje
      birananirana, kuko bari benshi. Kuko babanje kurasa portaille nini cyane babanje kuyirasa amasasu menshi irabananira kuko murugo baharwaniye iminsi ibiri, inzugi zanze gufunguka zo hanze
      z'amaportaille. Noneho nimugoroba nibwo bize umugambi kumugoroba, bashobora kurira ibipangu nibwo baguye mo imbere.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:43" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo twamaze nk'ibyumweru nka bibiri, bikiri ahongaho, amaterefone agicicikana n'iki… ubwo muri iyo quartier twari dutuyemo abandi
      bari bamaze guhunga, abandi bamaze gutwikirwa, abandi bamaze gupfa. Nta hantu donc na hamwe, umuntu ashobora kuba yabona yahungira.Ubwo nyuma y'ibyumweru bibiri kuko batwishe ari…, kuwa kangahe
      … kuwa gatanu mu ma saa kumi n'ebyiri. Sinibuka amatariki neza, ariko nzi ko ari nka nyuma y'ibyumweru bibiri.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:11" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo, nibwo binjiye ari nimugoroba, baraza barasimbuka urupangu, barasa urugi rw'imbere urw'imbere rurakinguka. Nibwo bazaga mu rupangu
      bagezemo, baravuga bati, ubwo twari twifungiranye. Baravuga bati: "mukingure." Muzehe aravuga ati: "ninkingura, byose ni hahandi nta kundi kuntu turi bubigenze n'ubundi, bararasa inzugi ni
      hahandi bari bwifungurire ku ngufu."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo yasohotse rero agerageza kurwana n'abari imbere mu muryango, birananirana, nibwo bamukubise urusasu yikubita hasi, ubwo abandi
      nibwo babashije kujya mu mazu rero, bati: "mwese musohoke hanze." Barasohoka. Cyari ikirongo kiva…, yari umurongo munini cyane kabisa, w'abantu benshi cyane benshi… kuko njyewe mperuka urusaku
      rw'abantu, sinakubwira ngo iki. Ubundi nyuma y'aho nabonaga abafite impiri numva bagenda bacoca, kuko bari mo ingeri nyinshi. Bamwe bararasaga abandi bakagenda barangiza, n'impiri, n'intuza
      n'imipanga n'iki…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:12" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ntiwatubwiye neza ariko uwo murongo w'abantu. Wari uturutse he? Ni abari bahahungiye...?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:16" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Uwo murongo w'abantu, uwo murongo w'aba… abari bari mu rugo ni abari bari mu rupangu n'ubundi bari bahahungiye. Kuko Muzehe
      yarabaterefonnye arababwira ati: "mwebwe nimubona binaniranye, bamwe mubohereze hano murugo, abandi mucicikane, buri umwe ahunge ukwe ahunge ukwe, ntimugende muri mwese. Kuko nibabatega,
      bashobora kubatega bakabica mwese. Ibyiza, mwohereze abo mushoboye, ab'abasore barimo cyangwa se inkumi zikirimo, bumva bafite ingufu, mushakishe uburyo buri umwe agende ukwe ukwe, ntimugende
      muri benshi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:45" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ku bwe nyine yabonaga ko bitashoboka kuko cyane cyane yababazwaga n'abo bana batoya, n'abo bagore babo batari bubashe kwiruka,
      bari bugende bica umugenda. Ariko nk'umuntu w'umugabo aravuga ati: "byibura barandwanya ndi bwiruke bandase wenda cyangwa se bankubite umuheto [kumurasa n'umuheto] nkomeze ariko wenda kugeza
      igihe ndibuze gupfira, ariko tudapfanye n'umuryango wose."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:09" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ubwo rero uwo murongo badusohoye twari benshi, badushyira hanze. Ubwo barasa uwo babanzagaho nyine wabo, ubwo barakomeza, jye
      bandashe ndi uwa… ndi uwa gatanu.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:19" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Bamaze kundasa, ariko ubwo mu kundasa akaba yarandasaga njye nshaka gutoroka. Kuko ahantu twari twicaye hari hari ikintu k'ikigunguzi
      kiri hejuru cy'amabuye, ariko hakaba hari akantu k'akaryango k'inyuma bari bagize barashe karafunguka, ubwo noneho bo binjira ari benshi kuburyo uwo muryango narawurebaga nkabona ko nta muntu
      uhahagaze. Sasa muri kwa kujya guhaguruka gutya nibwo yahise andasa hano [yerekana mu irugu] nikubita hasi. Ubwo nikubise hasi, niba yaraketse ko napfuye simbizi. Anca hejuru, arasa ubwo abandi
      bari bari iruhande rwanjye</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:53" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo barangije, umwe ati: "ariko, ati: ibi ntibihagije, ati: nimufungure grenade." Baba barayifunguye. N'ubungubu mfite ahantu zamfashe
      hano, mfitemo fragment ebyiri. Ubwo uko zagakubise, zarakubise ubwo nanjye iba iranyinjiye, ariko mu kunyinjira, numvise ari nk'akantu kameze nk'urushinge. Sinabyitaho, ndavuga nti: sasa
      nimpumeka, abantu baranyumva.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:14" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nanjye nguma muri ya maraso ndaceceka ndaturiya gusa…Ariko ubwo ishati ubwo inyuma yahindutse amaraso, abandyamye hejuru bose babaye
      amaraso. Ubwo jyewe icyo nakoze naracecetse gusa, ndaceceka ndabyihorera basubiramo batera grenade, abandi bakajya bagenda bakandagira bajomba ibyuma, sinzi uwaje kunjomba ubwo icyuma ariko
      arahusha, kijomba muri pasiparume hasi ariko naracyumvaga kabisa ko ari njye yaje aje kukijomba; arongera arazamura ajomba hano [ yerekanye ku rutugu], arebye asanga amaraso arava, aravuga ati:
      " ibyo ari byo byose nta wugihumeka urimo."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:47" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo bazamukaga. Ariko muri uko kuzamuka ubwo bazamukaga mbareba. Noneho icyo nakoze nahise negura umutwe, ngize ntya ngize gutya,
      nsanga abantu bose nta n'umwe uri kuvuga, bose babaye intumbi intumbi bose. Ndabyuka ndahagarara. Gusa ikintu njyewe nibuka nakoze, ninjiye munzu, nsohora ikiringiti, imvura yaragwaga, kinini
      cyane; ndorosa. Maze korosa icyo nafashe nahise mfata igitenge cy'umukecuru ndakitera.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:18" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo nkumva nabaye igishushungwe ndavuga, ese: njye munzu ndyame? Numvaga nta n'umutima ngifite, bya bindi byo kuvuga ngo umuntu
      ararira, numvaga nta n'amarira, habe n'igitonyanga. Gusa ahubwo natekerezaga ibintu bimbayeho izo saha, nkumva nanjye binshobeye.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:33" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Mu gihe nkiri muri ibyongibyo, baba barasimbutse na none baragarutse. Bagarutse kubera ko ishati yanjye nari nayitaye aho, kuko bwari
      bumaze no kwira, hahise haba urufaya rw'amasasu menshi. Kuko mu rugo baharasiye amasasu menshi cyane ariko. Menshi menshi, kuburyo n'abandi bantu bari batuye ahongaho b'abaturanyi n'iki… nyuma
      y'aho ngira ngo bamwe banatangiye no guhunga, abandi batekereza ko ahari ashobora kuba ari Inkotanyi zirimo kurwana n'Interahamwe. Gusa abenshi babimenye mu gitondo, bamwe bashungereye, abandi
      baje gusahura, ubwo nibwo jyewe nahise mva ahongaho. Ubwo maze guhunga nyine nanjye…ariko ubwo hagati ahongaho muri iyo minsi yose ukuntu Jenoside yagiye igenda hagati y'iyo minsi, ni ukonguko
      byagiye bigenda nyine, ni ibyo nagiye mbona hagati ahongaho.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:20" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Waba uzi urupfu rw'abo mwavukanaga ndetse n'urwa mama wawe? Watubwiye ko papa we bamurashe.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:25" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, Umukecuru nawe baramurashe gusa, yari umuntu w'umurokore ukunda kwisengera, numvaga za Yezu Kristu gusa. Ubwo barumuna banjye nabo
      ubwo, bari begeranye gutya. Kuko babicaje ku murongo, bari bicaye ku murongo nk'uko twaba twicaye gutya. Ubwo abandi numva induru ku ruhande…iki, hakaba ariko hari harimo umutante wanjye umwe,
      ni uko nyine nta kundi byari kugenda ariko iyo abasha nko kubona ubufasha wenda aba yaranakize kuko we yampfiriye mu ntoki kabisa gutya. Nta bundi bufasha nari mfite, nta ki… yari afite inda
      y'impanga, ubona kabisa ko agifite umwuka.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:00" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko nta kindi kintu nari kubasha gukora nanjye, numvaga nanjye ntazi ukuntu nabaye. Kuko we mamusize ahongaho bimaze kurangira, nibwo
      njyewe nahise ngenda. Ariko ubwo muri uko kubyuka, nta n'umwe wakomaga, Umukecuru we bari barangije kumurangiriza, bamaze kumurasa, bamurashe amasasu atatu. Abiri yaciye hano irindi rica hano,
      barumuna banjye bo bagiye babakubitagura ubuhiri, amasasu aha [yerekanye mu mutwe] n'iki, kuko yari umuvu munini cyane w'amaraso menshi cyane.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:33" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ariko warahavuye ntiwongeye kumenya ngo…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:35" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nta kindi kintu nongeye kumenya. Gusa icyo nzi cyo nongeye kumenya nyuma yaho ni uko gusa naje intambara irangiye byabindi nyine,
      Jenoside imaze kurangira, ubwo aribwo igihugu kigitangira nyine kwisanasana n'iki. Nibwo naje nsanga intumbi gusa ziri aho mu rupangu hose zirajyaye, ahantu hose. Mbasha gushaka abamfasha, kuko
      hariho abandi bacitse ku icumu bagenzi banjye bo kuri uwo murenge, babashije wenda kumfasha kuba umuntu yapfa kubarenzaho agataka gusa kugira ngo umuntu arebe…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:07" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Icyo gihe washoboraga kumenya ababyeyi bawe cyangwa…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:10" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gihe ntabwo nabashaga kubamenya buretse nk'ipantaro papa yari yambaye n'igitenge umukecuru yari yambaye. Ok, wenda na burumuna
      bwanjye nabwo nabashaga kumenya wenda nk'igice cy'umwenda yari yambaye, ikabutura cyangwa se ishati, ibintu nk'ibyongibyo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:26" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Wabashije kubashyingura mu cyubahiro?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Mu cyubahiro ntabwo byabashije, kubera ko kirya gihe urabona ubuzima bwari, abantu niyo bari bakiva mu bibazo n'igihugu ariyo
      kigitangira kwisuganya kugira ngo barebe ko batangira kudemara. Urebye ntabwo twakoze ibintu bindi bihambaye nta kindi, twafashe gusa, dushaka imyenda myiza n'iki, ni uko turabasasira mo
      indani, turenzaho itaka. Gusa icyo twakoze twamennyeho ikintu cy'igisima cyo hejuru gusa nta kindi kintu.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:57" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya kuva uvuye aho kugeza Inkotanyi zifatiye igihugu. Ubuzima bwawe bwari… watubwira muri make uko wabayeho?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa hagati aho muri Jenoside bwo narasufuye [naratesetse] cyane, kuko nagiye mpura n'ibibazo kandi…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:12" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Kuva uvuye mu rugo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:13" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Mvuye mu rugo ubwo narakomeje ndagenda, ariko ubwo muri uko gukomeza, niko ngifite n'abampiga inyuma, kuko bagerageje gushakisha ahantu
      hose, bava ndetse n'aho bitaga ku Kicukiro bajya i Gikondo. Ahandi hantu twari dufite amazu, baza kureba ko wenda abantu b'aho aribo baba bampishe. Ahubwo basanga na hariya sinigeze
      mpagera.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:42" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hagati ahongaho aho souffrance [imibabaro] zirangiye, nibwo maze guhura n'inkotanyi nabashije nabo kubasobanurira ibibazo nahuye
      nabyo, mbabwira n'aho narokokeye. Bagerageza kumfasha uko bishoboka, barambwira bati: "ese bite?" Ndababwira nti: gusa ikibazo mfite ni imvune, kandi murabona hari haraboze kabisa, kuko nta
      muti nabonaga nta n'ikintu nabonaga kimvura. Babasha kunyondora, n'iki. Barambwira bati: "genda usubire mu buzima bwawe busanzwe." Ariko ubu hagati aha ibyo aribyo byose ndabona ubuzima
      bwanjye, ok, si bwiza cyane, ariko nta n'ubwo ari bubi, kuko burya iyo ubasha kuryama mu mahoro, ukaramuka, ubuzima burakomeza.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:15" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ukimara kubonana n'Inkotanyi zikakubwira ngo ujye mu buzima bwawe busanzwe, wakoze iki hagati ahongaho, wagiye he? Wabanye na nde? Ikigutunga
      wakibonaga ute?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:26" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Hagati ahongaho…ubwo… ukuntu byagenze ubwo nyuma, bamaze kundeka ubwo nibwo nahise njya ku Kicukiro, hakaba hari umuntu wo muri famille
      wari waraharokotse. Ariko nawe, nkaba nibuka ko, eh, intuza… intambara igeze, nyuma wenda y'icyumweru kimwe. Bakaba bari bamaze kutumenyesha ko bo déjà badutanze gupfa. Numvaga rero ibyo ari
      byo byose nabo batakiriho, ubwo ndagenda njya i Remera hafi na IAMCA [aho K.I.E iri ubu].</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:54" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo naje kubona umugabo umwe wari uvuye i Buganda, ok nawe yari aziranye no mu rugo.Aza kunjyana kwiga i Bugande nigayo igihe gitoya
      ndagaruka, ino ahangaha ndiyandikisha ndakomeza ndiga buhoro buhoro buhoro. Ariko uko narebye nabonaga ubuzima ibyo aribyo byose uko nagiye mbubamo…ubwo n'ukonguko byagiye bigenda, nkahura
      n'abantu b'inshuti abari inshuti ab'inshuti sinzi cya… nabo wenda ba… bangirira impuhwe kubera ibibazo mfite n'akandimo. Ubuzima bugenda bugenda gutyo…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:25" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kugeza ubwo naje kumenyera nsubira mu Buzima busanzwe. Nkanavuga nti ibyo ari byo byose n'ubwo na jenoside yabaye ibyo ari byo byose
      ibyabaye, ibyo aribyo byose ariko umuntu agomba gushaka ubuzima. N'ubwo umuntu atabyibagirwa ariko ubuzima bugomba gukomeza.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:39" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Washoboye ku...kwiga? Urangiza se…?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:42" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Umh amashuli sinarangije kuyarangiza ariko nabashije kwiga ngera kuri au niveau [ku rwego] ku buryo nshobora kuba wenda nashaka gushaka
      Ubuzima, ariko n'ubu nda Préfèra [ndahitamo] kubisubiramo n'uko hari utubazo tukinzitiye gato.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:55" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Mu myigire yawe n'iki cyakugoraga?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:16" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Wigeze kutubwira y'uko watesetse cyane. Ibyo aribyo byose ntabwo wadusobanuriye neza uko guteseka…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:27" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, guteseka kwanjye ukuntu byagenze…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:28" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ukuntu byagenze mu buzima rusange usibye ibyo byose, mu buzima rusange watesetse gute kuva ababyeyi bawe ukimara kubabura kugeza ubu, wumva ari iki
      cyagutushije kugeza ubu?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:41" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ok, kuba nabura ababyeyi? Ok! Icya mbere, nagiye mu buzima ntari menyereye, surtout [cyane cyane] kubera ko burya iyo uri kumwe
      n'ababyeyi kandi ukiri na mutoya, burya hari ibintu…hari imyaka burya ugeramo, wenda bamaze kugukuza nawe ukamenya aho niveau y'ukuntu ushobora kuba waba washaka ubuzima bwawe. Ariko ubwo
      naringiye mu buzima ntamenyereye.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:04" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuba nta muntu mfite ushobora kuba wamfasha wenda mu bitekerezo runaka, wenda mvuge nti nkeneye iki mbe nahita nkibona. Ibyo nabyo byari
      ibintu byagiye bingora. No kuba byonyine gusa… n'ibyo nabonye byonyine, n'ukuntu nabonye ukuntu abantu bapfa, n'ukuntu nagiye mbona nsimbuka intumbi, abo nagiye ngeraho nziko aribo bashobora
      kundokora ahubwo nkabona nabo barashaka kunyica. Kugeza ubwo naje guhura n'Inkotanyi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:28" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko ndabyibuka hari umugabo wa hano twahuriye niba ari…hano munsi ya sainte famille, ambwira ko agiye kundokora. Ariko twageze ahantu
      mbona ahubwo ahantu anjyanye, ni ku cyobo. Ndamutoroka ndiruka. Nkwepera mu bantu bari bari ahongaho ntiyamenya ahanyu ndengeye.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:48" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: So, nagiye mbona rero ibintu bigiye bitandukanye cyane mu buzima, nkagenda mbona ukuntu abantu bafite ibibazo, nkareba ukuntu nyuma
      y'aho Jenoside birangiriye ukuntu Imfubyi zagiye zihura n'ibibazo, cyangwa se nanjye ibyo nagiye mbona n'iki. N'ubuzima nagiye menyera ntari menyereye. Uko Imana yagiye imfasha ubu maze
      kubimenyera. Burya yego baravuga ngo: "akabi ntikamenyerwa nk'akeza," ariko bigera aho ukabimenyera bitewe na cas [n'ubuzima] urimo.umh</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="33:18" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ibyo aribyo byose nanjye ndabizi ko ubuzima bwo kuba Imfubyi buragora. Ariko ni iki wakoraga kugirango ugerageze kwikemurira ibibazo byawe hagati
      y'aho?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="33:30" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh! Icyo nakoraga ubwo…ok. Na…nabashaga byibura kuko hari ahantu wenda nabashije kuba nabona hashobora kunyokipa [nakorera] hamwe hahoze
      ari iwacu, aho ho wenda ndabishimira Imana kubera ko ntakodesha wenda. Ibindi wenda nko mu bibazo byerekeranye na za minerval ntabwo byangoraga kubera ko icyo gihe wenda Ikigega cyabashaga
      kudufasha rimwe na rimwe. Ariko urumva nabo badufashaga muri ibyo by'amashuli nabyo ukabona ko ari byiza, ubwo wenda uvuga uti: "reka nige ubumenyi wenda ejo nanjye mbone uko nzibeshaho."</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:06" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo nyine ubuzima bukagenda gutyo. Uwo mbashije kubwira igitekerezo cyanjye, yabona ari ngombwa ko amfasha akamfasha. Kuza kugeza ubwo
      numva maze kabisa kumenyera, no kuba maze kwigira hejuru, numva ari ibintu bishimishije cyane.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:20" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Wumva kuri wowe ari iki wibuka kikakubabaza kurusha ibindi, muri wowe; kandi kikagutesha kuba wakwishima. Ni nk'iki wumva wibuka kikakubabaza
      cyane?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:31" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuba ntarikumwe n'abavandimwe, kuba ntaaa ok nta famille,ibyo nabyo biri mubintu byamberekubaho ntafite uwo mbwira ibibazo byanjye
      ngwabe yabicyemura , surtout ugasanga icyo kintu ,nkicara wenda nkavuga nti: iki kintu nakagombye kukibona murubu buryo.Ariko se ko mbona ntawe mfite ukimfashamo byagenda gute? bigatuma mpitan
      nibuka ntubu iki gihe ikiniki iyo umubyeyi yarikuba ari hafi cyangwe undi muvandimwe yakabimfashijemo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="34:59" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa ntibice intege, kandi na none nkababazwa ubuzima imfubyi barimo ku viva [kubaho] butakagombye kuba ngombwa. Na none ugasanga wenda
      muri… surtout muri nk'imfubyi eshatu enye, ariko mwese ugasanga ntacyo mumariranye, nabyo ugasanga ari agahinda na none.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:18" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Ibyo aribyo byose, eh bigaragara ko niyo waba uri imfubyi ugomba… ubuzima bugomba gukomeza.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:24" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: ee, kabisa ibyo byo mbona ko bugomba gukomeza…n'ubu buranakomeza rwose.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:26" stop="" player="">FREDDy: Eh! Ndagira ngo nkawe wabinyuzemo ufite éxpérience [inararibonye] y'ubuzima bugoye nk'ubwo, ni iyihe nama wagira abantu bafite ubuzima
      nk'ubwawe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="35:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa inama nabagira, Ikintu cya mbere nabaha Moral. Bakamenya ko mu buzima biriya ni ibintu, ok byabayeho kubera y'uko abantu kirya gihe
      bari babaye inyamaswa kubera na politique mbi. Ikindi kintu nabagiraho inama, ni uko uwumva afite ubu afite occasion yo kuba igihe cye yagikoresha neza, akaba yagikoresha. Niba abashije kwiga
      akiga, niba abashije se kubona ako kazi akakabona, niba se hari n'uwo iwabo wenda baba bararangiye ariko afite n'ako ga Parcelle wenda basenye; nkaba mubwira ko igihe cyose yaba afite
      possibilité ishoboka nawe ashobora kuba wenda yasubizamo…wenda nawe iye. Agasubizamo umuryango, mu gihe cyose azaba afite… possibilité zishoboka kuzikoresha. Igihe cye akaba yagikoresha neza.
      Njye ndumva ari cyo kintu nabagiraho Inama.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="36:37" stop="" player="">FREDDy: Ikindi kibazo nagiraga ngo ngusabe watubwira, ku bantu babikoze. Bakoze ibyo bintu. Ni ubuhe butumwa wabaha?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="36:46" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Njyewe gusa ikintu cya mbere ubutumwa nabaha. Byo nibabanze bemere ko amakosa koko bayakoze. Hanyuma nibamara kwemera ko bishe, ubwo
      ibindi byo biza bizoroha. Kubera ko niba uhakana ko utishe umuntu, kandi byemezwa hari n'abakwemeza ko wishe. Njye numva ibyiza ari uko wakwemera ko icyo cyaha wagikoze.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:10" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Noneho wamara kwemera ko wagikoze, ubwo ibyo aribyo byose niba ari n'ibihano uzabigabanyirizwa cyangwa se ukuri kuzabakugaragaye. Wenda
      nibyo bavuga ngo: "umuntu yanakubabarira," wenda ndumva no kubabarirwa wenda sinaku… hari abatanga imbabazi hari n'abatazitanga. Ariko, babanze bemere bati: "twakoze icyaha, twarishe koko
      twamennye amaraso." Ubwo nibamara kwemera ko ibyo bintu kabisa ko icyaha bagikoze ibindi bizoroha. Ariko mu gihe batemera ko icyo cyaha bagikoze, kandi hari n'ababi… n'ibimenyetso wenda
      bibagaragaza ko babikoze koko. Numva ibyiza ko ari uko babyemera ko babikoze. Yee.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:47" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Abantu baba bara…rirokotse iri tsembabwoko bo wabaha ubuhe butumwa?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="37:54" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa namuha inama yo kugira ngo ase nk'umuntu ubyirengagiza gato, abanze akomeze ubuzima. Ashake ubuzima namara kubona ubuzima azabona
      ko n'ibindi [arimyoza] byoroshye.Yee, gusa ntibiteze kumushiramo, ibyo ntibishoboka. Ariko byibura azarebe uburyo abyikarumamo [yakwiyumanganya] nawe arebe ubundi buryo yabigenza. Gusa ashake
      ubuzima kuko niko bigenda. Kuko n'abatwicaga bumvaga ko tudashobora kurokoka, bumvaga ko no kuba twararokotse ni… bo bumva ari inzozi kuri bo. Ntushobora kumva ukuntu ushobora kuza ukica tuvuge
      umuryango w'abantu ijana, harokokamo umuntu umwe. Bo bumvaga ko bidashoboka ariko Imana yo yaberetse ko buri kintu cyose gishoboka. Umh.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="38:57" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Iki gikorwa cyo kwibuka abantu bajya bakora, wowe ukivugaho iki?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="39:02" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gikorwa njye ndagishima cyane ni na kiza, kuko nta kuntu ushobora kubona Milliyoni hafi zingahe zapfuye. Ngo tu turenzeho duse
      nk'aho… tuvuge ngo byaribagiranye? Oya ntabwo byashoboka. Iki gikorwa ni kiza kugirango… iyo cas icyo gihe buri muntu wese bazajya bavuga bati: "iki gihugu habaye amahano aya n'aya yatewe
      n'impamvu izi n'izi, ariko noneho icyi gikorwa dukora cyo kwibuka abagiye bapfa mu ma Jenoside n'ibiki… Giha n'abandi urugero, giha n'ibindi bihugu urugero, bakavuga bati: "iki gihugu ibyabaye
      koko ni ibintu bibi kandi ntibizongere. Gusa nkabona ko iki gikorwa ari kiza cyane kugirango gikangurire abantu kumenya aho igihugu cyacu kigana, n'ayo mahano yabaye ko atazongera kuba.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="39:49" stop="" player="">FREDDY: Nagira ngo nkubaze ikindi kibazo, urabyumva ko uri mu buzima utakwiye kuba urimo iyo uba ugifite ababyeyi, ariko nanone wifuza ko wagira ubuzima
      bwiza. Muri make wumva ari nde wabigiramo uruhare kugira ngo ubuzima bwawe bwongere bube bwiza ushyire n'umutima hamwe?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:11" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa, ibyo byo kugira ngo umuntu abigiremo uruhare byo… ndumva cyane cyane. Ok, na F.A.R.G [Ikigega gishinzwe gutera inkunga abacitse ku
      icumu ry'itsembabwoko batishoboye] ikoresha uko ishoboye ibasha gufasha bamwe, ababaho ubuzima bugoye ikabasha kubagira inama, uburyo bashobora kubyifashamo. Ariko numva cyane cyane ibyo ari
      byo byose ubuzima ubundi umuntu yagakwiye kugira, si ukuvuga ngo wifuze ibyo utazabona, cyangwa ngo umuntu akwizeze ibyo atazaguha.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="40:37" stop="" player="">Nshimiyimana Claude: Ibyo ntibiba bishoboka, ariko iyo ubashije kuba ukiriho, ukabasha kuba ufite aho uruhukira. Ushobora kwakirira umushyitsi wawe, ukabasha
      kuba wagira ikintu cy'umunsi mukuru, ugasurwa n'inshuti, kuko ubwo za nshuti muba musigaranye nibo bavandimwe bawe. Inshuti cyane cyane. Ndavuga inzima ariko; nibo baba ari abavandimwe bawe,
      mukabasha gusurana, donc mugakora ikintu kimeze nka community [umuryango] ku buryo, nawe ubona ko utari wenyine. Ni uko ufite abantu bagusura, bakwegera, muganira, ukishima nawe ukabona ko…
      yaba ari igitekerezo kizima mukaba mwabasha kugifashanya mu buryo mushoboye; byaba se ari ibintu by'amaporoje [projet] "imishinga,"byaba se ari ukwiga mukabasha gufashanya mu bintu by'ama étude
      se cyangwa by'iki…ibintu nk'ibyongibyo by'iterambere. Numva ari byo bintu byabasha kuba byiza.</gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
    <gm:itext type="transcript" title="French Translation" player="video1">
      <gm:tm start="00:59" stop="" player="">Claude: Je m'appelle Nshimiyimana Claude. Nous habitions à Kicukiro, secteur Ngoma, zone Ngoma.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:10" stop="" player="">Claude: Avant le Génocide je vivais avec mes parents, j'étais à l'école primaire. La vie était bien puisqu'on nous payait nos études mes frères et moi. Nous
      étions bien en famille, sans problème…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="01:36" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais après, les temps ont changé, la dure période de 1994 arriva. Nous avons commencé à souffrir des problèmes de Génocide à partir du mois d'avril,
      des gens sont devenus sujets de chasse… j'ai perdu ma famille, j'avais une famille d'environ 60 personnes. Tout le monde est mort, il ne reste plus que moi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="02:32" stop="" player="">Claude: C'est arrivé mais moi j'ai pu survivre. Il était vers 18 heures et demie quand ils sont arrivés, ils formaient un groupe de plus de 200 personnes. Je
      me souviens bien que les militaires sont venus en premier, les Interahamwe après. Ces Interahamwe suivaient tous les mouvements au cas ou un survivant s'échappait, ils devaient l'achever.
      C'était ça leur boulot: achever.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:09" stop="" player="">Claude: Il y avait des femmes enceintes, des parents, des amis mais parmi tous ces gens, j'ai été le seul à survivre. C'était un soir, ils nous ont fusillé,
      ils étaient très nombreux. Lorsque j'ai pu me relever pour voir s'il y avait quelqu'un d'autre en vie…personne! Il n'y avait qu'un fleuve de sang.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:37" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais ce temps là j'étais complètement paralysé, je ne pouvais rien faire mais il s'est avéré nécessaire que je cherche un moyen de sortir de là.
      Sortir était un vrai problème, il faisait noir, je ne pouvais pas distinguer le chemin.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="03:53" stop="" player="">Claude: Je leur ai ainsi échappé. En fait, ils m'avaient tiré dans le dos puis j'avais laissé ma chemise [par terre], elle était verte. Ils ne s'en sont
      rendus compte que le lendemain alors qu'ils étaient venus piller. C'est en remarquant ma chemise qu'ils ont su que quelqu'un leur avait échappé. Ils ont fait de leur mieux pour me retrouver,
      ils avaient même fait passe des communiqués en disant: « si nous le trouvons caché chez l'un d'entre vous, cette personne aura des problèmes. » Mais puisque je n'étais pas dans les
      environs…j'avais continué, c'était en pleine période de pluie, les gens se réfugiaient à l'ETO [Ecole Technique Officielle], j'ai cherché un moyen d'aller à l'ETO moi aussi mais je n'ai pas pu.
      Entre temps je n'avais aucun autre moyen.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="04:53" stop="" player="">Claude: J'ai utilisé tous les moyens possibles mais je n'ai pas pu. Je passais à tous les endroits où vivaient des membres de la famille mais partout où
      j'arrivais, ils étaient déjà tous morts.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:08" stop="" player="">Claude: La guerre a continué, je passais entre les cadavres et ceux qui agonisaient encore, ceux qui ne pouvaient plus rien faire de leur vie… j'avais été
      blessé par balle dans le dos, je me rappelle que c'était vers 19 heures que j'avais été blessé, de là où j'étais pour arriver au portail c'était une chose difficile pour moi. Sortir était
      encore plus compliqué parce qu'il y avait des Interahamwe dehors qui attendaient que quelqu'un saute la clôture pour qu'ils en finissent avec lui. Ils attendaient le moindre geste, ils en
      avaient déjà fini dans la maison puis après ils ont reçu l'autorisation de piller.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="05:53" stop="" player="">Claude: Je m'étais caché derrière un coin de la maison, je les ai vus piller…je suis ensuite entré dans la maison, j'ai pris ce que je pouvais…j'ai pris un
      pagne que j'ai attaché au dos parce que je saignais beaucoup. Je me suis ensuite caché dans un coin, ils ont fait ce qu'ils avaient à faire [piller] mais il y a des choses qu'ils n'ont pas pu
      déplacer ce jour là, ils sont revenus le lendemain. Le lendemain quand ils sont revenus, j'étais déjà parti.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:18" stop="" player="">Claude: J'ai souffert par la suite, j'ai traversé plusieurs obstacles, les barrières, des choses comme ça…seulement si ton jour n'est pas encore arrivé, rien
      ne peut t'arriver. Ensuite, les Inkotanyi sont arrivés, ils m'ont sauvé.Je les ai croisés sur le champ de bataille, ils avançaient en combattant et en même temps sauvaient des vies
      humaines.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="06:47" stop="" player="">Claude: C'est comme ça que j'ai survécu, ils m'ont ensuite emmené à l'hôpital parce que j'avais été blessé mais il ne s'agissait que de soigner la cicatrice
      car ils n'ont pas été en mesure d'enlever la balle du dos. Ensuite la guerre se termina, le programme d'étude n'était pas encore assez solide, mais le FARG [Fond d'Assistance aux Rescapés du
      Génocide] nous mobilisaient pour aller à l'école. Nous avons fait l'inscription puis on nous a envoyé à l'école. Ce temps là, les élèves étaient repartis par les ministères.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="07:20" stop="" player="">Claude: Je suis allé à l'école mais j'avais toujours un problème de bras à cause de la blessure entre les épaules, même que je n'étais pas encore
      psychologiquement stable…la vie a continué comme ça, il y avait aussi des collègues qui avaient vécu ces périodes là, nous nous racontions mutuellement ce qui nous était arrivés à nous et à nos
      proches pendant la guerre. En général c'était des atrocités, même celui qui pouvait…. Tuer quelqu'un qui n'a rien contre toi, c'est très mauvais ! c'est comme tuer un agneau, tu peux lui faire
      tout ce que tu veux…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="08:11" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais Dieu merci la guerre est finie. Nous avons recommencé une nouvelle vie. C'est sûr qu'il y a des difficultés mais il y a quand même la paix. Les
      autres choses sont à chercher avec le temps. Depuis ce temps jusqu'à l'heure actuelle, je trouve que ça va…il y a bien sûr des difficultés que l'on rencontre en chemin, des problèmes de la vie
      courante, mais je me dis que Dieu seul sait pourquoi nous avons survécu. Je me dis que Dieu joue un rôle important parce que je me dis que les gens ne seraient pas aussi forts sans la puissance
      de Dieu.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:21" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu viens de nous parler de ta vie en large, je voudrais te poser quelques questions… Peux-tu tout d'abord me dire les noms de tes parents ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:36" stop="" player="">Claude: Mon père s'appelait Macumu François et ma mère Umulisa Odette.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:42" stop="" player="">Freddy: Vous étiez au nombre de combien dans ta famille ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:43" stop="" player="">Claude: Nous étions deux…plutôt trois. Tous des garçons. Ils sont tous morts, je suis le seul survivant.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:54" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu es le seul à avoir survécu ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:54" stop="" player="">Claude: Oui, parmi tous mes frères.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:57" stop="" player="">Freddy: Quel âge as-tu ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="09:58" stop="" player="">Claude: 25 ans.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:05" stop="" player="">Freddy: Si j'insistais un peu sur la vie avant le Génocide, tu sais que des gens étaient persécutés, emprisonnés comme traîtres…serait-ce arrivé dans votre
      zone que toi ou tes parents aient été persécutés pour que tu nous le racontes un peu?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:28" stop="" player="">Claude: Oui, cela a eu lieu. Dans la famille, certains ont été contraints à déménager parce que les gens disaient qu'ils cachaient des Inyenzi. Ils étaient
      traités comme des traîtres jusqu'à ce qu'ils se sentent obligés de déménager. C'est arrivé à la maison, nous avons été persécutés…nous n'étions pas en sécurité.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="10:49" stop="" player="">Claude: Au fait mon père voyageait souvent dans le cadre de son travail…nous étions menacés, les Interahamwe venaient la nuit, frappaient à la porte,
      faisaient n'importe quoi. Mais on n'y pouvait rien puisque ceux à qui on aurait pu plaider notre cause étaient les auteurs de ces troubles. Tu comprends donc qu'on ne pouvait rien faire, il n'y
      avait aucun moyen de se défendre à part appeler les voisins et leur dire les problèmes qu'on a eu. Et puis tu en parlais à un voisin en qui tu avais confiance. Tu leur expliquais ton problème
      mais puisqu'ils ne pouvaient pas faire grand chose pour toi, ils te disaient de faire ceci ou cela ou alors de supporter puisqu'ils ne pouvaient rien pour toi !</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:33" stop="" player="">Claude: Nous avons été persécutés chez nous et le Génocide a même eu lieu Après que nous ayons été attaques à trois reprises sauf qu'ils [les Interahamwe ]
      n'arrivaient pas à faire quoi que ce soit</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:45" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu nous as dit qu'il y a des gens de ta famille qui ont été contraints de déménager. Te souviens-tu de leurs noms, ils déménageaient pour emménager
      où?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="11:57" stop="" player="">Claude: Ok, mon…je dirais que c'était mon oncle, il vivait ici à Gikondo mais il y avait d'abord vécu avec sa famille à Kanazi, de Kanazi ils ont emménagé à
      Cyangugu, là encore ils ont été force de déménager, ils sont ensuite venus vivre ici à Gikondo.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:08" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais entre temps, durant la période des traîtres, un membre de la famille a été arrêté, il a été battu jusqu'au point de devenir fou. Il s'appelait
      François, il est mort durant le Génocide à Gikondo, là où il y avait un Interahamwe impitoyable surnommé ‘Congolais'. La vieille de François était surnommée la mère des Inkotanyi dans toute la
      zone de Gikondo. C'est là qu'ils ont été tués durant le génocide. Les autres ne pouvaient ni sortir ni avoir du travail à cause de la carte d'identité. Parce qu'on disait que lorsque quelqu'un
      sortait, il rapportait des informations secrètes aux Inyenzi puis revenait avec d'autres. Mais quand ils se mettaient à fouiller, ils ne trouvaient rien du tout. C'était toujours comme
      ça…c'était l'insécurité à chaque fois qu'ils se plantaient à ta porte.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:55" stop="" player="">Freddy: Bref chez vous, vous étiez persécutés parce que…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="12:58" stop="" player="">Claude: Parce qu'on nous prenait pour des traites des Inyenzi. On nous détestait parce qu'on avait des amis à l'étranger, des trucs comme ça. Parce qu'avant
      1990, les gens de l'extérieur venaient visiter les leurs dans le pays mais après tout s'est arrêté de sorte qu'il n'y a plus eu de communication avec eux.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:22" stop="" player="">Freddy: On sait bien que ce temps là, il y avait une guerre ethnique entre Hutu et Tutsi. Tu nous as dit que ton père voyageait souvent et que ta mère
      restait à la maison. Est-ce que ton père était menacé parcequ'il voyageait souvent ou seulement parce qu'il était Tutsi</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="13:39" stop="" player="">Claude: Euh c'était ces choses là de Tutsi dont il était victime parce qu'il disait la vérité et parce qu'il avait épousé une femme issue d'une famille dite
      des Inyenzi, des choses comme ça. Mon père était quelqu'un qui de véridique, il avait beaucoup d'amis, de différentes origines, un peu partout, il était menacé pour ça à cause des calomnies
      ethniques, sectorielles… Même que le quartier que nous habitions était très dangereux, les gens l'appelaient camp Butaro. Tous les réfugiés de Ruhengeri venaient habiter dans cette zone.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:18" stop="" player="">Freddy: En bref, tu nous dit que ton père était menacé parce qu'il disait la vérité. Comment se comportait-il dans cette situation ? Peut-être se disait-il
      ‘ces gens me détestent...' Pourrais-tu nous expliquer en bref ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="14:31" stop="" player="">Claude: Au fait ils le menaçaient parce qu'il ne prenait pas part en tout ce qui concernait la division basée sur l'ethnie ou la localité. En plus de cela,
      mon père n'avait peur de personne, il n'avait jamais peur de dire ce qu'il voulait. Il ne se sentait pas obligé d'être d'accord avec quelqu'un dans ses bêtises simplement parce que ce dernier
      lui était supérieur. Ils disaient alors : « Ce type est contre nous, pourquoi est-ce quand nous lui disons que nous voulons faire ceci, il est toujours contre ? » En plus de cela, quand il
      voyageait, à son retour, il nous emmenait des cassettes vidéo des Inkotanyi ou celles de Kayirebwa, des trucs comme ça les vexait. Ils en faisaient un problème.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:29" stop="" player="">Claude: Oui, il leur disait : « Non, Ça ne doit pas se passer comme ça ! »</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:36" stop="" player="">Freddy: Après avoir su que l'avion de Habyarimana avait été abattu, comment avez-vous reçu la nouvelle chez vous ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="15:47" stop="" player="">Claude: Je me rappelle bien que j'étais entrain d'étudier, ma mère lavait mon petit frère au salon, mon père prenait un verre avec ses amis dans sa buvette à
      côté. Nous avons ensuite entendu dire que le Président venait de mourir. Soudain l'expression au visage de mes parents a changé, nous n'étions que des enfants, ils ne pouvaient pas tout nous
      expliquer… Cependant, j'ai vu mes parents se refroidir d'un coup, au milieu de tous les gens qui étaient là.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:18" stop="" player="">Claude: Mes parents ont ensuite dit qu'il ne fallait plus qu'attendre et voir si le jour se lèverait en paix. Mon père avait ajouté : « C'est fini, il ne
      nous reste plus qu'à fuir, si jamais nous avons la chance de voir le jour demain, nous devrions partir. » Mais quand ils parlaient de fuir, ils parlaient de nous réfugier à l'ETO [Ecole
      Technique Officielle], à Kicukiro. C'était le seul endroit où on pouvait aller parce qu'aucun voisin ne pouvait te cacher en ce temps là. En plus la personne qui te tuait c'est celle qui te
      connaissait, il ne s'agissait pas de gens d'ailleurs.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="16:48" stop="" player="">Claude: Au fait ces Interahamwe étaient sous le contrôle d'un supérieur qui leur disait d'aller à tel ou tel endroit qu'il connaissait parfaitement. Il s'est
      donc avéré nécessaire de fuir, en fuyant le matin…Déjà la veille même, les gens avaient commencé à être tués, les balles ont retenti toute la nuit, juste à côté de chez nous des barrières ont
      été montées sur toutes les routes du quartier. Ils tuaient des gens.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:15" stop="" player="">Freddy: A partir du moment où ton père vous a dit de fuir, explique-nous ce qui s'est passé par la suite et si tu te souviens des dates, dis-les-nous ou que
      vous avez passé tel nombre de jours à tel endroit…jusqu'à ce qu'il meurt.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="17:27" stop="" player="">Claude: Je ne me souviens pas très bien mais nous…je me rappelle que ce matin là, il a mis son poste radio sur la fréquence Muhabura, il était vers 5 heures,
      il suivait les informations. Juste après, Evode qui était le parrain de mon petit frère et qui habitait à Kicukiro avait téléphoné à la maison, mon père disait : « nous sommes coincés, nous ne
      pouvons pas fuir alors qu'il est encore temps, nous ne pouvons pas non plus entreprendre d'aller au CND [conseil national de développement], il n'y a personne pour nous aider et même ceux qui
      le peuvent, ils sont encore loin »</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:07" stop="" player="">Claude: Il y avait des appels à tout moment et même des appels internationaux, les gens demandaient : « Nous venons d'apprendre que Habyarimana a été
      assassiné, quelle est l'athmosphère, comment se présente la situation ? » Mon père leur répondait en ces mots : « Nous ne faisons qu'attendre, peut-être qu'il va se produire quelque chose… »
      c'est parce qu'on avait annoncé que personne ne devait sortir de chez lui mais les plus intelligents avaient pressenti ce qui allait arriver.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:28" stop="" player="">Claude: Il a continué à recevoir des coups de fil des gens qui lui demandaient comment se présentait la situation, il leur disait : « Je suis avec ma famille
      à la maison, je n'ai aucun moyen de sortir. Les gens sont entrain de se faire tuer devant ma maison…c'est grave ! »</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="18:47" stop="" player="">Claude: Un ami à mon père, dont la femme était la sœur à ma mère [c'est-à-dire que leurs femmes étaient soeurs], était notre voisin et sa femme était
      enceinte de jumeaux. Cet homme vivait avec ses petits frères puis mon père lui a dit : «Dépose ta femme chez moi puis arrangez-vous pour fuir, celui qui survivra racontera l'histoire. » Il s'en
      est suivi que la dame est venue chez nous puis d'autres encore plus nombreux, plus ils se groupaient à la maison, plus les Interahamwe planifiaient leur attaque.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:23" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais entre temps, les Interahamwe avaient peur qu'en nous attaquant, ils pouvaient être défiés par mon père, il avait essayé mais ils étaient trop
      nombreux. Ils avaient d'abord tiré sur le portail mais il ne s'ouvrait pas, ils avaient insisté mais ils n'arrivaient pas à défoncer les portes. Ils se sont battus pendant deux jours à la
      maison puis un soir, ils se sont décidés à sauter par-dessus la clôture.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="19:48" stop="" player="">Claude: Ça faisait deux semaines que nous étions dans cette situation, les lignes téléphoniques passaient encore mais entre temps certains voisins avaient
      déjà fui, certaines maisons avaient déjà été brûlées, des gens tués…il n'y avait aucune échappatoire. C'est exactement deux semaines après qu'ils nous ont massacrés, c'était le…c'était un
      vendredi à 18 heures. Je ne me souviens pas très bien des dates mais je suis sûr que c'était après deux semaines.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:16" stop="" player="">Claude: Ce soir là, ils ont sauté par dessus la clôture, ils ont défoncé la porte par balle, ils sont entrés puis ont dit : « Vous croyiez donc que vous vous
      êtes enfermés ? Ouvrez cette porte ! » Mon père a dit : « C'est la même chose, si je n'ouvre pas, ils vont la défoncer et entrer de force. »</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="20:42" stop="" player="">Claude: Il s'est décidé à sortir. Dehors il a essayé de se battre contre ceux qui étaient devant la porte et ils l'ont abattu. Il est tombé raide mort. Ils
      ont ensuite ordonné à tout le monde de sortir, c'étai une longue file, il y avait beaucoup de gens. Je ne saurait pas te dire la suite, j'ai juste entendu beaucoup de bruits puis…je voyais des
      gens avec des massues, c'était les plus nombreux ;les uns tiraient dans la foule puis les autres les achevaient avec des massues, d'autres avec des machettes…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:17" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu ne nous as pas bien expliqué la file, d'où venait-elle ? Ces gens étaient-ils chez vous…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:19" stop="" player="">Claude: C'était la file de ceux qui s'étaient réfugiés à la maison. Ils étaient dans notre parcelle parce que mon père les avait appelés et leur avait dit :
      « Envoyez certains d'entre vous à la maison et fuyez séparément, il ne faut pas fuir en groupe parce qu'il se pourrait que vous soyez interceptés puis tués du même coup. Le mieux est d'envoyer
      les garçons ou les filles d'abord qui sont encore forts, cherchez un moyen de partir un à un, pas tous à la fois. »</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="21:49" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais il savait bien que c'était impossible, ce qui lui faisait le plus de peine c'est ces femmes et ces enfants qui ne pouvaient pas courir et qui
      allaient être tués l'un après l'autre. Il se disait que lui, si jamais ils l'attrapaient, il pouvait courir et serait abattu par balle ou ils lui enverraient une flèche dans le dos mais il ne
      voulait pas devoir mourir avec toute sa famille.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:11" stop="" player="">Claude: Euh…ils nous ont fait sortir à la queue leu leu, nous étions nombreux, ils ont d'abord tué celui qui était devant eux, ils ont ensuite continué, moi
      ils m'ont tiré dessus en cinquième lieu.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:24" stop="" player="">Claude: En me fusillant, j'ai fait une manœuvre pour sortir, j'essayais de m'échapper parce qu'il y avait des pierres montées derrières lesquelles il y avait
      une petite porte de sortie qu'ils avaient défoncée en entrant. Je regardais la porte ouverte sans garde…c'est en essayant de me lever qu'il m'a tiré une balle dans le dos, je suis tombé sur le
      champ. Il est venu, il est passé au-dessus de moi, certainement qu'il me croyait mort…il a tué les autres qui étaient à côté de moi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="22:58" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais après ils ont dit que cela n'était pas assez, il fallait dégourdir les grenades. Ils les ont lâchées…j'ai été touché par des fragments, j'en ai
      reçu deux et je les ai jusqu'à présent. Quand elles ont éclaté, les fragments ont pénétré mon corps mais je me suis dit que si je faisais geste de respirer, ils m'écouteraient…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:20" stop="" player="">Claude: Je suis resté là, allongé dans le bain de sang, ma chemise était mouillée de sang, le sang jaillissait des morts qui étaient couchés sur moi…je suis
      resté sans bouger, les Interahamwe venaient achever avec les gens en leur enfonçant des couteaux. Il y en a un qui est venu vers moi, il a voulu me tuer mais m'a loupé, il l'a enfoncé dans le
      gazon…mais je sentais bien que c'était moi la cible, il a levé son couteau pour la deuxième fois puis me l'a enfoncé entre les épaules, quand il a vu le sang couler, il s'est dit qu'il ne
      restait plus de survivant.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="23:53" stop="" player="">Claude": C'est alors qu'ils sont remontés, je les suivais de l'œil…ensuite j'ai levé la tête, j'ai bougé de tous les côtés mais tout le monde était mort. Je
      me suis levé, la seule chose dont je me souviens avoir fait c'est entrer dans la maison, prendre une couverture et me couvrir, il pleuvait…j'ai pris un pagne. Ce pagne appartenait à ma mère, je
      me suis couvert avec.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:23" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais entre temps j'étais comme devenu bête, je me demandais s'il fallait que j'entre dans la maison dormir…je n'avais aucune larme, aucun sentiment.
      Je me demandais seulement ce qui venait de m'arriver, je ne comprenais rien.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="24:38" stop="" player="">Claude: Au moment où je réfléchissais sur tout ça, ils ont sauté par-dessus la clôture et ils sont revenus. Puisque j'avais perdu ma chemise, en plus il y
      avait une rafale terrible…au fait à la maison il y avait eu une rafale extrême de façon que les voisins….Certains croyaient que les Inkotanyi y menaient une bataille, d'autres fuyaient déjà,
      ils ne s'en sont rendus compte que le lendemain matin lorsque les uns venaient pour piller et les autres pour se rendre compte de l'évidence. Moi c'est en ce moment que je me suis éclipsé.
      Après j'ai fui mais entre temps c'est de cette façon que se déroulait le Génocide, c'est ce que j'ai constat …</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:24" stop="" player="">Freddy: As-tu une idée sur la mort de ta mère puisque tu viens de nous dire que ton père a été tué par balle ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="25:30" stop="" player="">Claude: Ma mère aussi a été fusillée, elle était chrétienne [protestante], elle aimait beaucoup parler de Jésus. Mes frères eux, étaient rapprochés
      puisqu'ils étaient assis dans la file comme ceci. Après…j'ai entendu du bruit puis…il y avait aussi une tante, elle aurait peut-être pu s'en sortir, elle a respiré son dernier souffle dans mes
      bras, comme ça…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:07" stop="" player="">Claude: Comme je ne pouvais rien faire…je l'ai laissée là, je ne sais pas comment je me sentais mais je l'ai laissée et je suis parti. Franchement, quand je
      me suis levé, personne ne bougeait, ma mère était déjà morte, elle avait reçu trois balles : une ici, une là et une autre là. Mes petits frères eux avaient reçu des coups de massues, des balles
      dans la tête…un grand fleuve de sang coulait là…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:35" stop="" player="">Freddy: Quand tu es parti, tu n'as plus su ce que…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="26:39" stop="" player="">Claude: Je n'ai plus rien su jusqu'à ce que je sois revenu après la guerre. Juste après le Génocide, au temps de reconstruction du pays….Je suis retourné à
      la maison mais il y avait beaucoup de cadavres, j'ai demandé aux gens de m'aider, c'était des rescapés du quartier, ils m'ont aidé à les recouvrir de terre pour voir si…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:13" stop="" player="">Freddy: A ton retour as-tu pu reconnaître tes parents… ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:15" stop="" player="">Claude: Je ne pouvais pas les reconnaître, à part le pantalon que portait mon père ou le pagne que portait ma mère, savoir que mes petits frères portaient
      tel short ou telle chemise…de telles choses.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:32" stop="" player="">Freddy: As-tu pu les inhumer en tout honneur ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="27:34" stop="" player="">Claude: Non ! Tu vois ce temps la, les gens sortaient des problèmes, le pays venait à peine de commencer à se reconstruire, à tout recommencer. Au fait nous
      n'avons pas fait grand chose à part leur trouver de beaux vêtements et bien faire l'intérieur de la tombe c'est tout ! Nous les avons enterrés puis avons juste cimenté le dessus.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:02" stop="" player="">Freddy: Est-ce que tu peux nous dire quelle genre de vie tu as menée depuis ton départ de chez toi jusqu'à la prise du pays par les Inkotanyi?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:11" stop="" player="">Claude: J'ai beaucoup souffert durant le Génocide…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:17" stop="" player="">Freddy: Non, depuis le moment où tu es parti de chez toi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:18" stop="" player="">Claude: Je suis parti de la maison mais il y avait toujours des gens qui me poursuivaient partout. Ils m'ont cherché par tous les moyens et même jusqu'à
      Gikondo. Ils sont ensuite allés à un endroit où des gens louaient nos maisons mais à leur grande surprise, je n'y étais jamais allé.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="28:42" stop="" player="">Claude: Mais après, les souffrances se sont arrêtées, j'ai rencontré les Inkotanyi, je leur ai expliqué tous les maux que j'avais vécu, je leur ai même dit
      là où j'ai survécu. Ils m'ont demandé mon état, je leur ai répondu que mon seul problème était ma blessure parce qu'elle avait pourri puisque je n'avais reçu aucun médicament. Ils ont essayé
      puis ils m'ont dit qu'il fallait que je reprenne la vie normale. Sauf que ma vie, elle n'est pas belle mais non plus elle n'est pas mauvaise parce que quand on arrive à dormir en paix…la vie
      continue.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:20" stop="" player="">Freddy: Juste après que les Inkotanyi t'aient dit de reprendre la vie normale. Qu'as-tu fais ? Avec qui as-tu vécu? Où trouvais-tu à manger ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:27" stop="" player="">Claude: Quand ils m'ont dit de partir, je suis d'abord allé à Kicukiro, il y avait un membre de famille, un rescapé aussi mais je me rappelle que quand la
      guerre a éclaté, juste une semaine après, on nous avait appris qu'ils [lui et sa famille] n'étaient plus en vie, je me disais qu'il était sûrement mort.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="29:58" stop="" player="">Claude: Je suis ensuite allé à Remera, à l'IAMCA [un Institut Supérieur], il y avait un monsieur, ami de la famille qui vivait en Ouganda, il m'a emmené en
      Ouganda pour étudier, j'y ai fait quelques temps puis je suis revenu poursuivre mes études petit à petit. Seulement ce que j'ai ce pu constaté c'est que la vie…je rencontrais des amis de la
      famille, je ne sais pas s'ils avaient pitié de moi mais…la vie que j'ai traversée….ça allait un peu…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:28" stop="" player="">Claude: Jusqu'à ce que j'ai été habitué à la vie normale. Le Génocide a eu lieu certes mais…on se dit quand même qu'il faut lutter pour survivre. Il ne faut
      pas l'oublier mais la vie doit continuer.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:44" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu as étudié…as-tu pu terminer ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:46" stop="" player="">Claude: Je n'ai pas pu terminer mes études mais j'ai quand même un niveau qui peut me permettre de me débattre dans la vie…Je souhaite reprendre, seulement
      j'ai quelques petites choses à régler.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="30:59" stop="" player="">Freddy: Qu'est-ce qui rendait difficile tes études ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:01" stop="" player="">Claude: J'avais des maux de tête aigus…quand je me concentrais, la tête me faisait affreusement mal. J'avais aussi un problème de bras, je ne pouvais pas
      faire…</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:20" stop="" player="">Freddy: Tu nous as dit que tu as beaucoup souffert mais tu ne nous as pas dit comment.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:32" stop="" player="">Claude: Comment j'ai souffert ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:34" stop="" player="">Freddy: A part tout ce que tu nous as dit, comment as-tu souffert Après avoir perdu tes parents, aujourd'hui, qu'est-ce qui te touche le plus ?</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="31:46" stop="" player="">Claude: La première chose c'est le fait d'avoir perdu mes parents. C'était une vie a laquelle je n'étais pas habitué. Tu sais, quand on est encore petit… il
      arrive une période où l'on grandit, on atteint un niveau auquel on peut se débattre dans la vie…mais moi je devais faire face a une vie non habituelle.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="32:09" stop="" player="">Claude: Le fait de n'avoir personne pour me soutenir moralement, quelqu'un à qui dire que je veux ceci ou cela, c'était des choses difficiles pour moi. Le
      fait aussi d'avoir vu des gens mourir, sauter par-dessus des cadavres…en plus les gens que je croyais être mes sauveteurs se sont avérés être ceux qui voulaient me tuer…jusqu'à ce que je croise
      les Inkotanyi.</gm:tm>
      <gm:tm start="41:29" stop="" player="">Freddy: ??</gm:tm>
    </gm:itext>
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      <map kml="/extensions/GSMCreator/rwdtest.xml" lat="-2.2214281090541204" lng="29.90478515625" zoom="7"/>
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  </gm:gml><p> </p>

<h3><span class="mw-headline" id="Continues_with_Part_2_of_the_Oral_Testimony_of_NSHIMIYIMANA_Claude.">Continues with <a href="index.php/Kmc000143/kmc00143_vid2.mp4" title="Kmc000143/kmc00143 vid2.mp4">Part 2 of the Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude</a>.</span></h3>
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Family Life
- Living Conditions Before Genocide
- People By Family Relationship
  - My Father
  - My Mother
  - My Siblings
Discrimination And Persecution
- Home Assaults
- Hiding
- Shot In The Back
- Looting Property
- Mass killings
- Death Of My Family
- Shootings
- Stabbings
- Betrayal
Responses To Persecution And To The Totalitarian Rule
- Rescued by The Inkotanyi Soldiers
- Displacement And Discrimination
- Resistance Of My Father
Education Life
- Scholarship By FARG (Fonds d'Assistance Aux Rescapes du Génocide)
Health and Health Services
- Post-Traumatic Illnesses
Psychological, Emotional And Cognitive Experience
- Orphanage Life
- Nostalgia Of My Loved Ones
- Expectations
Message
- To The Orphans
- To The Perpetrators
- To The Survivors In General

View People

NSHIMIRIMANA Claude (a survivor)
MACUMI François Claude's Mother
UMULISA Odette Claude's Father
François (a victim)
KONGORE (Congolais) (member of Interahamwe militia)
KAYIREBWA (Rwandan Artist)
HABYARIMANA (Former President)
EVODE (a friend)

View Places

KICUKIRO
NGOMA
ETO
GIKONDO
KINAZI
CYANGUGU
Camp BUTARO
RUHENGERI
AMCEA
UGANDA

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Table Of Contents

Pre-Genocide Experience
Introduction
Displacement And Discrimination
Genocide Experience
Killings
Rescuers
Victims
Bombings
Post-Genocide Experience
Reflection On FARG
My Education
Reorganization
Vision For Life

English Translation

Nshimiyimana Claude: My name is Nshimiyimana Claude. We were living in Kicuciro, in Ngoma district in Ngoma zone.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, before the genocide… well, I was living with my parents. I was in primary school. I was with my young brothers. I had a good life with no concern as far as school fees is concerned; we were living in peace as a family. But later things changed. Bad times came from April 1994; that is when we started suffering due to the genocide. People were hunted, I lost my family members; I had about sixty relatives but they all died and I am the only survivor.
Nshimiyimana Claude: When they came home to kill, they were very many. Some were armed; others were carrying clubs and many other weapons. So they came home and found us there. We were very many; some neighbors had come to hide home because they had no other alternative; they couldn't go and hide anywhere else. Therefore, they decided to join us at home saying that, if it meant to die, we would die together. Or if it meant to survive, we would also survive together.
Nshimiyimana Claude: So it happened but… well, I managed to escape. They came at around six thirty, a big number; it was an attack of about two hundred people. Soldiers came first and then the Interahamwe followed. They [Interahamwe] were waiting to kill those who would manage to escape [the soldiers]. They used to call it ‘finishing off'.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Then … well, some of them were pregnant, all the friends who were there… I am the one who came out of there alive. It was in the evening when they started shooting us and they were very many. As I was lying down, I stood up and checked if there was anyone else who survived but there was none. There were only floods of blood.
Nshimiyimana Claude: But because by then I was … well, I had become numb; I couldn't think of doing anything at that time yet I needed to find my way out of that place. It wasn't easy to leave that place because I was difficult to find space where to step.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Well, I hid myself and I was lucky to see a new day. That is when I got out of that place. I thought it was the end of everything and so, there was nothing I was waiting for. Then I thought, " Let me find a way of protecting myself and see if I would survive."
Nshimiyimana Claude: I escaped from them. Even those who came later… In fact, I left a green shirt where I was shot; I was at the back. So I left my shirt there and the following morning, when some people came to loot, they realized that someone had managed to escape. They tried to look for me but they couldn't find me. They even declared that whoever will be caught hiding me would also be killed. But I didn't hide near there, I continued fleeing. It was a rainy season; it used to rain heavily and several people were fleeing. I looked for a way of going to E.T.O [a technical school in Kicuciro] but it wasn't possible because I had no one to help me [get there].
Nshimiyimana Claude: I tried all possible ways but I failed. Then I started moving around. However I thought there were relatives who had survived nearby but they had all died.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I continued doing that and the war went on, the 1994 war. I would pass through dead bodies, people who were terribly hacked and couldn't do anything for themselves. I had also been shot on the back but I would try and walk. I remember the shootings took place at seven in the evening. Later after the shooting, I tried to get out of the fence where we were but it was a problem to me as they had destroyed all the behind passages. They blocked the way out so that they could see anyone who would try to jump over the fence. They waited and realized that there was no alive, then they told each other, "You can now enter and start looting."
Nshimiyimana Claude: I was there and they started looting while I was watching. But I was hiding in a corner of the house. After it happened, I entered in the house and got a cloth and tied it here behind because I was terribly bleeding. After tying it there, I got out. And stood there at the corner. They came and did all they did … there are some things they did not manage to take that particular night. They came the following morning. When they came back that following morning, I had left.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I suffered… I went through so many problems, the roadblocks, and things of that sort. But because my [last] day hadn't reached, nothing happened to me. Later the Inkotanyi saved me. But still, they only saved me because we met at the place where they were fighting. They used to take some people, not everyone and then they would advance.
Nshimiyimana Claude: That is how I survived and I was taken to the hospital. I was treated because I had been injured. But they only treated the wounds; they did not remove the fragments that were inside the wound. In July, the war ended but things such as schools hadn't started operating. Then F.A.R.G [funds for the assistance of the genocide survivors] encouraged us to go back to school. We started the registrations and the ministry split us up in different schools.
Nshimiyimana Claude: So I managed to study but because I had a problem with my arm, which was due to the wound where I was shot at the shoulder, I was not very okay mentally. Life went on like that. They were other children who survived. We used to meet there and talk about what happened to us and to our people during the genocide. But days were very bad during that period. No one was able to … imagine one killing a person who is not fighting back. It is a big problem; killing someone who can never fight back, it is like killing a lamb. The killer was capable of torturing the victim as much as he wished.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Fortunately, the war ended. Life went on as it used to be. Well, life was still very hard but peace was certain. The rest comes slowly by slowly. From then up to now life is going on fairly. Well, people get problems like health problems and others but one keeps trying to look for a living. We believe that it is God, who knows. When we consider what happened during the genocide and the way some people survived, we believe that God played his role. Because human beings would never manage it without God's power.
FREDDY: Now that you have told us about your life in details, I would like to ask you some questions; could you please tell us your parents' names?
Nshimiyimana Claude Eh, my dad was called Macumi Francois and my mum was called Umulisa Odetta.
FREDDY: And how many were you in your family?
Nshimiyimana Claude: We were two … three kids at home. We were all boys. They all died and I am the only one who survived.
FREDDY: Among all your brothers you are the only one who survived?
shimiyimana Claude: Yes, among my brothers.
FREDDY: How old are you?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I am twenty-five years old.
FREDDY: Before the genocide, you very well know that people would be hunted, tortured, others would be arrested saying that they were traitors or something of that kind; did it ever happen in your home that you or your parents were tortured? If it so, please tell us in brief how it happened?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes it used to happen especially within families. Some people were victimized in that way. Our families would shift; they would be living on a certain hill and because on that hill, it would be said that they were Inyenzi traitors, then our families would be forced to shift. I remember how my family was tortured and we had no security.
Nshimiyimana Claude: My brother used to work outside the country; he used to go on long trips and then Interahamwe would attack us at night; they would bang on our door… but we would be patient because the same people we were supposed to report to were the ones to initiate everything. I guess you understand that we had no way to defend ourselves apart from telling our neighbours about it. Still you would tell it to some of the ones that you trust saying, "I got such and such problem." But since they also didn't have means to help, they would just tell you to do some things… or ask you to be strong, there was nothing else that we could do.
Nshimiyimana Claude: We definitely used to get such problems. In fact we were attacked three times at home before genocide started. But they never did any harm to us.
FREDDY: You told us some of your family members would be forced to shift. Do you remember their names so that you tell them to us? Where did they go or where were they taken?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yeah… okay, there was… well I can call him my uncle; he used to live there in Gikondo and in Kinazi before. When they left Kinazi, they went to Cyangugu. They made move to Cyangugu and then they came back here in Gikondo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: During the time when people were suspected to be traitors, there is one of my relatives who was beaten up to the extent that he died after going crazy. His name was François. He died in the genocide in Gikondo, an area where there used to be a terrible Interahammwe called ‘Congolais' [Congolese]. His mother [François'] was called Nyinakazi w'Inyezi [meaning ‘Mother of Inyenzi'] in Gikondo. The genocide found them in Gikondo. Their identity cards were taken away from them so that they wouldn't move; they couldn't even go to work. Whenever they would go out of the house, the authorities would say that they [my relatives] were carrying information to Inyenzi. And whenever they would come back home, they would say that there were some things that they got from Inyenzi. They would try to go through their pockets but they wouldn't find anything on them. One could easily tell that there was insecurity in the family.
FREDDY: In brief, your family would be accused of …
Nshimiyimana Claude: They were accused of being Inyenzi traitors. They were again accused of having friends in exile, such things. Before 1990, people used to come to Rwanda from exile maybe they were coming to visit their relatives. But things changed, they stopped coming. There was no more communication among people since then.
FREDDY: It was well known that there was a tribal war between the Hutu and the Tutsi. And you told us that your father used to go into exile while your mum would stay at home. Do you mean your father was victimized due to going out of the country or because of being a Tutsi?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Well, he was not harassed because he was a Tutsi but because he used to say things the way they were. Another reason as to why he was harassed was the fact that he married an Inyenzi. He was a person who could easily make friends no matter what their background was. Then there was enmity not between different tribes but also between people from different regions and other things of the sort. The place where we lived was located in a very bad area. You have probably heard of a place called ‘Camp Butaro'. All the refugees who came from Ruhengeri and other areas used to live in that area.
FREDDY: Could you please tell us in brief… you said he was harassed due to his honesty but … What was his behaviour? The times you talked, what did he say he was accused of? Tell us in brief how he used to handle it.
Nshimiyimana Claude: In fact what he was accused of, he was accused… First of all he was someone who…did not like the ideas of jealousy or of ethnic or regional segregation. Secondly, he was not afraid of saying the truth, he did not fear anyone and he couldn't support anyone he would see doing something wrong. Never! So, they thought he was against them. They would say, "Why is it that when we tell him our ideas he never agrees with us?" What made things worse is that whenever he would go away on long trips, he would bring us tapes of Inkotayi or Kayirebwe's video tapes. So there was always a question mark.
FREDDY: He was victimized because other Hutus would say, "This is our fellow Hutu but he doesn't behave the way we do."
Nshimiyimana Claude: He would tell them, "This is not the way things should be."
FREDDY: Could you briefly tell us how your family reacted after hearing that Habyarimana's plane crashed?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I remember I was revising my lessons and my mum was cleaning up my young brother in the sitting room. My dad owned a small bar where he was sharing a drink with other people, and then we heard that Habyarimana died. I could tell that there was a change on my parents' faces. By then we were young, and although they would not tell us exactly what was going on, I could feel the tension in my parents and in everyone who was at home.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yeah, that is when they said that, "Let's wait and see if we will reach morning peacefully." All we could do was to flee. I remember my dad saying, "It is over now." They were saying we should flee to E.T.O in Kicuciro because it was the only place where people could hide; a neighbour wouldn't hide you, ever. Because you knew that some could actually be the ones to kill you. People would kill in their neighbourhoods.
Nshimiyimana Claude: The Interahamwe who would do that were always accompanied by an older person to direct them saying, "Go there…" Someone who knew the place very well. Therefore, we decided to flee but we never managed to flee in the morning. People got killed that particular night. We were hearing gunshots the whole night. And some of our neighbours had already put roadblocks on the streets near our home. That's how they started killing people.
FREDDY: Tell us in brief… from where he said, "Let's flee." What happened later… if you remember the dates or if it was two or three days later… up to his death, what happened?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I don't remember the days but I know we were … yeah, what happened in the meantime. The morning after the plane crashed, I remember he tuned on radio Muhabura to listen to news at around five in the morning. Then some man called Evode called, he was my brother's godfather. As they were talking he told my father how things were, he said we had no way to flee before it's too late. Secondly, he said that those who could have helped us were too far. There was no way we would walk up to C.N.D; it was impossible.
Nshimiyimana Claude: He tried making phone calls… people who were outside the country would call him asking about the situation in Kigali. They would say; "we have heard that Habyarimana's plane was crashed, how are things there?" We were waiting to see what would happen because they had forbidden people to go out of their homes. Nobody was allowed to go out of his or her house. But the wise men had already sensed what was going to happen next.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Meanwhile he received several phone calls from inside and outside the country, people were asking him how the situation was. He would tell them, "I am at home with my family but we don't have a way out. People are being killed in front of my house, things are horrible here."
Nshimiyimana Claude: A certain neighbour whose wife was my mom's sister. His wife was pregnant; she was carrying twins. He had several other brothers. They were all together in the same house. Then my dad told him, "Instead of… there is no way you will hide your wife, you'd better bring her to my home and leave her there. Then the rest, everyone should find his own way. Whoever will survive will tell the story." That is what happened, they brought her home and others started fleeing to different directions. As people would keep on coming to hide at home, the Interahamwe would also plan how to attack us.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Although they were making plans, they were also afraid that my dad would fight them. Indeed he tried though he failed; they were very many. They first shot our gate; it was a very big gate, they shot with so many bullets and it never fell down. They fought to open the different gates around the fence for two days in vain. It was one day in the evening when they finally decided to climb up the fence and get inside the compound.
Nshimiyimana Claude: For two weeks things were still the same; phone calls time after time… in that area where we were living, others had already fled. People's houses were being burnt and people were being killed. Generally there was no place to hide. Two weeks later… they came to kill us …on a Friday at around 6:00 p.m. I don't remember well the dates but I am sure two weeks had passed.
Nshimiyimana Claude: That evening they entered our home. They jumped the gate and shot the front door and it opened. Then they all entered inside the gate but we had locked ourselves inside the house. They ordered to open the door but my dad said, "Whether I open or not won't make any difference, they will still shoot the doors and open them by force."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Therefore, he went outside and tried to fight the men who were in front of the house but he did not succeed, instead he was shot and he immediately fell down. Then other militias entered in the house and ordered everybody to get out. Everyone got out; it was a very long line of people. What I heard at last was people making noise. After that I saw people holding clubs and smashing other people. They were of different types; some were shooting and others would finish up using clubs and machetes…
FREDDY: You did not clearly explain about that long line of people, where was that line coming from? Was it the people who had hidden there…?
Nshimiyimana Claude: That line of people … it was the people who were inside the house and the ones inside the compound. They had sought refuge at home. My dad would call people and tell them that in case things got worse where they were, some should come to his house while others flee to other areas. He would warn them from fleeing in a big group saying that, in case they ambushed them, they would die in a big number. "Send me the ones I can hide and tell the strong boys and girls to flee in separate directions. Don't let them flee in a big number." He would tell them.
Nshimiyimana Claude: He never thought that such a thing would happen. Mostly, he felt pity for the children and the women who weren't able to run. He thought such people would easily be killed. At least a man is capable of fighting or running. Even if they are shot while trying to run they can keep on running only if they are not fleeing with the rest of their family.
Nshimiyimana Claude: They got us out of the house. We were very many forming a rank and they took us outside. They would shoot every person to get out, I was the fifth person to be shot.
Nshimiyimana Claude: After shooting me… they shot me while I was trying to escape; I was sitting somewhere where there was a drum supported by stones. Around there, there was a small door, which they [militias] had shot and it was open… the militias entered in a big number and I could see that no one was standing at the door. As I was trying to stand up, he shot me here [he shows] and I fell down. When I fell down, maybe he thought I was dead. He skipped me and shot those who were around me.
Nshimiyimana Claude: At the end one of them said, "This is not enough, open a grenade." They opened one. I even still have its scars somewhere here; I have two fragments inside here. As they threw the grenade, I was also hurt but it just felt like an injection so I ignored it. I thought in case I breathed, they would hear me.
Nshimiyimana Claude: So, I remained in the floods of blood and kept quiet. My shirt was full of blood and everyone who was lying on top of me had blood all over. I just kept quiet. And then they threw another grenade and some of them walked over people's bodies stabbing them with knives. I didn't notice one who wanted to stab me. Fortunately he missed and hit the ground on the grass instead. I sensed that it was me he wanted to stab. He again raised up the knife and stabbed me on the shoulder. When he saw me bleeding, he thought we were all dead.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Therefore, they left. I was watching them as they were leaving. I rose up my head a bit but everybody was silent; they were all dead. I stood up… One thing I remember is the way I entered the house and picked up the blanket; it was raining and the blanket was very big. Therefore, I covered them and covered myself with a loincloth, which belonged to my mum.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I had lost my mind; I would wonder if I should get into the house and sleep. I was confused. Sometimes people cry but I didn't have tears to cry, not even a drop. Instead I would think about what had happened to me and I'd suddenly feel so confused.
Nshimiyimana Claude: While I was still there, they jumped back over the fence and got in. I had left my shirt there… it was even becoming dark. They shot many bullets to the extent that some of the neighbours fled and others thought it was a contest between the Inkotayi and the Interahamwe. The majority were informed about what it was the following day. Several people came to watch us; others were looting our property. That was when I left the place. After fleeing I …meanwhile during all those days genocide was worsening. That is what I saw in the meantime.
FREDDY: Do you know how your family members died…? I mean your brothers and sisters and your mum. You told us that your dad was shot…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes … my mum was also shot. She was a "born again Christian." She liked praying so much; all I would hear her say was, "Jesus Christ". And my brothers were next to each other; they were made to sit in a line like this… I heard people screaming besides. I remember my aunt… there was no other way but if I had had help, she would have survived. She died in the banana plantation but I too was helpless, I couldn't do anything yet she was carrying twins; she was pregnant. For her she still had some strength to breathe.
Nshimiyimana Claude: There was nothing I could do for her, myself I had lost conscience due to what had happened to me. I left her after she had taken her last breathe. By the time I left, no one was alive; my mum was already dead. They shot her three bullets; two passed here, and the third one through here. My brothers were smashed with clubs and shot on the head. There was a big stream of blood.
FREDDY: But when you left, you never got a chance to know that …
Nshimiyimana Claude: I never got another chance to know what happened next. I came back after the genocide like others… the time the country was trying to be reorganized. And I found only corpses lying in the compound. I tried to get people to help me; they are some friends at the same sector who survived the genocide. They helped me to cover them with some soil so that one would think of what to do next…
FREDDY: By that time, would you tell who your parents were or…?
Nshimiyimana Claude: By that time, I couldn't identify my parents' corpses … wait, maybe the pair of trousers my dad was wearing or the loincloth my mum was wearing. I could recognize my brother from the piece the shorts or the shirt he was wearing. Things like that.
FREDDY: Were you ever able to exhume and rebury them officially?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I wasn't able to do that. You see those day life was … people had just come out of those problems and the country was just trying to be rebuilt in an attempt to see if things could go back to normal. We didn't do anything special for their reburial ceremony. We just got some clothes and laid them inside [the grave] and covered them with some soil. Then we ceiled the grave with cement, nothing else.
FREDDY: Would you please tell us in brief how your life was, from the time you left your home to the time the Inkotanyi captured the country. What was your life like… tell us in brief how you were living?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Generally, during the genocide, I suffered a lot because I got many problems yet …
FREDDY: From the time you left your home.
Nshimiyimana Claude: When I left home I continued to walk. But even as I was going, there were some people who were behind me. They tried to hunt me all over to the extent of leaving Kicuciro for Gikondo looking for me; we had houses there. Therefore, they came to see if those attendants were hiding me. They found out that I never went there.
Nshimiyimana Claude: After the struggle, that is after meeting the Inkotanyi I told them [Inkotanyi] all I went through and where I had been. They helped me as much as they could. They asked me, "how are you?" I told them that my problem was the injury I had. They could see it had rotten because I never used to get treatment. They treated me and later asked me to go home and start looking for a living. My current life … well I cannot say that it is very good but still I cannot say that it is too bad. When there is peace in the country and one is able to sleep peacefully, then life goes on.
FREDDY: After you met the Inkotanyi… and they asked you to go and start looking for ways to live, what did you do or where did you go? Whom did you live with and how would you get your daily bread?
Nshimiyimana Claude: What happened later after they left me, I went to Kicuciro. There is someone from my family who had survived but I never knew … when the war began, I guess it was one week later, we were told that they killed them. Therefore, I thought they had all died. I went to Remera near IAMCA, where KIE [Kigali Institute of Education] presently is.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Then I met a certain man who had come from Uganda; he knew my family. He took me to school in Uganda. I studied there for a while and came back to Rwanda. I registered here and started studying from here slowly by slowly. That is how things used to be. I would meet friends and they would help me because they knew what happened to me and life went on.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I finally got used to it and started living a normal life. I would say that, even though genocide took place, one has to look for a living and ignore all that happened. One can never forget what happened but life has to go on.
FREDDY: Did you manage to finish school?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Well… I did not finish school but I reached a certain level where I am able to look for a living. But I wish to go back to school though I still have some problems.
FREDDY: What was bothering you while you were at school?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I used to have a problem of headaches. I would be attentive in class but all of a sudden I would get terrible headaches. Another problem was due to my arm; it would hurt me so much and I wouldn't…
FREDDY: You said you suffered a lot. But you never explained very well to us how you suffered.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh… the way I suffered…
FREDDY: What happened in your life in general? Not just that but also in your whole life from the time you lost your parents up to now. What has been the most challenging thing?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Loosing both my parents? Well… first of all I started another kind of life, which I wasn't used to. Because when you live with your parents especially when you are still young, there are some things… there is a certain age you reach… that is when they have brought you up and then you reach at a certain level where you can look for your own living. I entered another life that I was not used to.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Living without anyone to help me in my plans; let's say, getting something I needed. Those are the things that would disturb me. The fact that … those are things I noticed. The way I saw people dying and the way I was skipping corpses, people I would run to hoping that they would save me who instead also wanted to kill me. Until when I met the Inkotanyi.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I remember there was a man who lived here and we met at Sainte Famille. He assured me that he was going to save me. But we reached somewhere and I noticed that where he was leading me, it was towards a certain pit. I escaped him and run away; I escaped though crowds of people who were there and he never knew where I went.
Nshimiyimana Claude: I saw different things in life. I saw people suffer. I saw how after the genocide orphans got problems, I included. I got used to a different life style. God helped me now I am used to the new life style. There is a saying that, "Akabi ntikamenyerwa nk'akeza." It means it is more difficult to get used to bad things than to good things. But later you get used due to the situation. Yeah…
FREDDY: I also know how difficult life for orphans. But what can you do to solve some of your problems?
Nshimiyimana Claude: What I would do, I would go to some place where I would keep myself busy especially to my former house. I thank God that I didn't rent a house. And as far as school fees were concerned, I wouldn't bother much because the funds [F.A.R.G, Fond d'Assistance aux Rescapés du Génocide] would help us. We appreciate their help for our school fees because we would go to school saying, "Let's study maybe tomorrow we will be able to improve our lives."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Life went on like that… I would tell some people my problems and some would help me when they could. Until I got totally used to it and I grew older, which made me so happy.
FREDDY: In your lifetime, what is the most painful memory? Something that takes away your joy. What hurts you most whenever you remember it?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Living without my relatives… no family, which is the most important thing … living without anybody to tell my problems. Sometimes I say, "I could get this or that in such a way, but since there is nobody to help me, what can I do?" Then I remember that, I could have been with my parents or relatives and they could have helped me in such a time.
Nshimiyimana Claude: However, it doesn't discourage me. Secondly I am hurt by the kind of life orphans lead yet they weren't meant to live that way. Especially when they are three or four orphans who cannot help one another. It is a pity.
FREDDY: Well… even if you are an orphan, life has to go on whatever the case may be…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yes, that is true life has to go on. And it is still going on.
FREDDY: What advise can you give someone like you who passed through such hardships and who experienced a hard life? Those who lead a life like yours?
Nshimiyimana Claude: The advice I can give them… first of all I would encourage them to have morale. They should know that in life such things … well, such things happened because people had become wild due to bad governance. Another advice I can give them is to use their time efficiently. If one has a chance to go to school, he or she should study. If one gets a job then he or she should work. Or if there is someone who has a farm with destroyed houses, he or she should try to build there his or her own house and put there his or her own family when they get an opportunity to do so. Any one who has a chance should use it well. That is the advice I can give them.
FREDDY: Something else I would like to ask you is about those who did those things [those who killed]. What message do you have for them?
Nshimiyimana Claude: The message I can give them… well they should first admit their crimes. After they have admitted that they killed, the next step would be easy. Because if you deny that you killed yet they are witnesses who accuse you to have killed, I believe it is better to accept that you committed the crime.
Nshimiyimana Claude: If you admit that you committed a crime then your punishment would be reduced or… whatever the case, the truth would be revealed. Maybe to those who talk about forgiveness… well some people forgive while others don't. But they should first admit that they murdered people and shed blood. After they admit their crimes, the rest will be easier. But since they don't admit what they did yet there are witnesses and several signs that condemn them… I think they should just acknoweldge what they did.
FREDDY: What message can you give to the survivors of this genocide?
Nshimiyimana Claude: The message I would give them… well, they have different categories, because some survivors… their way of understanding things are different due to the kind of life they are leading. There are some who found none of their family's possessions left at their home sector, umh! But the families of those who killed his or her people are still there living peacefully.
Nshimiyimana Claude: The only advice I could give such a person is to kind of overlook what happened and go on with life. He or she should look for a living. He or she will later find out that everything is possible. However, such a person will never forget what happened, that is impossible. But he or she should just find a way to ignore it and look for a living because that is how life is. Because even those who were killing us never knew that we would survive. To them, the fact that we survived is unbelievable; imagine killing about a hundred people from the same family and one survives. They never knew it was possible but God proved to them that everything is possible. Umh…
FREDDY: What do you think about the action of commemoration that people normally take?
Nshimiyimana Claude: I appreciate that ceremony and I find it very good. There is no way one can see more than a million people die and act as though it has been forgotten. That is impossible. It is a good ceremony because … whenever that period comes, people always say, "At such a time, disasters occurred in this country due to this or that reason." That act of commemoration for those who died in the genocide… constitutes an example to other nations…it gives an example to other countries and they get a chance to judge that what happened to our country was terribly wrong and should never happen again. I find that ceremony very important because it helps people to predict our country's future and it helps us to avoid its reoccurring.
FREDDY: Today you are leading a life that is different from the one you would be living if your parents were still alive. You certainly desire a better life. Whom do you think should play a role in improving your life and for you to get peace at heart?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Saying that one has a role to play in it… F.A.R.G tries its best to help some of us. The fund tries to advice those who are leading a difficult life about how they should behave in such a situation. I believe in life it'[s important to … Not that we should wish for things we will never get or let someone make promises they will never fulfill...
Nshimiyimana Claude: That is not possible. What matters is that you have a place where to relax or a place where you can host a visitor or a place where to throw parties and host friends because you consider the friends that survived as your family. Of course I am talking about real friends; they are the closest relatives one is left with. You visit each other and live in a sort of community so that you don't feel deserted. When people visit you, you chat and when there is an idea to analyze, you do it together and you are happy. If you are working on a project or studying then you do it together. Such things contribute to our own development. I guess that the best thing to do.

Ubuhamya Bwanditse

Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubundi njyewe nitwa Nshimiyimana Claude, tukaba twari dutuye ku Kicukiro, akarere ka Ngoma, Zone ya Ngoma.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, mbere y'itsembabwoko, ok nabanaga n'ababyeyi nari umunyeshuri narigaga muri primaire, na barumuna banjye. Nabagaho neza kubera y'uko ari amashuri nararihirwaga ndetse na bagenzi banjye twari tuva inda imwe, tukabasha mbega kuba turi kumwe n'umuryango neza nta kibazo kiduhungabanya n'iki. Ubwo nyuma y'aho rero nibwo ibihe byaje guhinduka, habaho ibihe bibi cyane byo muri 1994 guhera mu kwa kane. Nibwo twatangiye gusufura [guhangayika] nyine kubera ibibazo bya Jenoside, abantu barahigwa, mpfusha mu rugo nari mfite umuryango hafi w'abantu bagera kuri mirongo itandatu, barapfa bose aba ari njyewe usigara.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo hagati aho , ubwo baza kwica murugo nyine, baje ari benshi abazanye intwaro, abafite impiri, abafite iki, ni uko badusanga nyine aho twari turi mu rugo kuko twari abantu benshi cyane, hari n'abari babashije guhungira mu rugo abari hafi abari batwegereye, kuko babonaga ko nta handi hantu bashobora kuba ba… ba… baca cyangwa se bakwitabaza. Bahitamo kuza mu rugo rero kugirango twifatanye, ubwo niba ari ukurokoka turokoke cyangwa se niba ari igihe cyo gupfa nyine ubwo dupfe.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo rero nyine byaje kuba, ok mbasha kuvamo, ubwo baje ari mu gihe cya saa kumi n'ebyiri nigice. Baza ari benshi, cyari nk'igitero cy'abantu bagera hafi nko kuri Magana abiri, kuko habanje abasirikare bafite imbunda, nyuma y'aho nibwo haje kuza mo Interahamwe, ariko nazo zikaba zo zari zitegereje ko uri bubashe kurokoka asimbuka nabo babashe uburyo bashobora kuba bamurangiriza nyine, ibyabo bitaga ngo ni ukurangiza.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo…bon, hari harimo abatwite, ababyeyi batwite, abandi bantu b'inshuti bari bari aho, ubwo ni njye muntu wabashije kuva mo muri abo bose. Hari igihe cya nimugoroba, baturasa bari abantu benshi cyane, gusa ariko aho nari ndi nabashije kuhabyuka ngo ndebe ko hari uwaba yarokotse nsanga nta n'umwe, nsanga imivu y'amaraso, iki.
Nshimiyimana Claude : Ariko kubera ko icyo gihe nanjye ok, nari maze kuba igishushungwe numvaga nta kintu nshobora kubasha gukora hagati aho, biba ngombwa ko nanjye nashakisha uburyo nshobora kuba nava aho hantu. Kuhava byarangoye cyane, kuko ntari kubona inzira y'ahantu nshobora kuba naca n'iki.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ok! Mbasha kwihisha ahantu nihishe, nza kugira Imana mbona burakeye, nibwo nabashije nanjye kugerageza uburyo nava aho hantu. Kuko nabonaga ko birangiye, nta kindi kintu nkihategereje, ndavuga nti: nanjye reka nshakishe uburyo nshobora kuba nakwirwanaho ndebe ko narokoka.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Mbasha kubatoroka, gusa n'abaje nyuma, kubera ko aho bandasiye nahataye ishati y'icyatsi, bari barandashe hano mu mugongo. Mpata ishati yanjye, ubwo bukeye baje gusahura nibwo bamenye ko hari umuntu wabashije kuhava. Bagerageza gushakisha ngo barebe wenda ko bambona, kuko bari batanze n'amatangazo cyane bavuga bati: "umuntu turi busangane uwo muntu, nawe dushobora kumugirira nabi." Ariko kubera ko hafi ahongaho atariho nabashije kuba natorokera, ubwo ndakomeza ndagenda, cyari igihe cy'imvura, imvura igwa n'iki, n'abandi bantu bahunga, bagira gute. Nshakisha uburyo nshobora kuba nahunga ngo njye kuri E.T.O [Ishuri rya Kicukiro] mbona bidashoboka, kuko hagati ahongaho nta bufasha bundi nari mfite.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ngerageza gushakisha uburyo bwose birananirana, ubwo nibwo nagiye ndorongotana ahantu hose n'iki, ariko aho hose natekerezaga ko hashobora kuba hari abavandimwe, nabo bari bamaze gupfa.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo nkomeza gutyo iki, intambara irakomeza y'icyendana kane [1994] ngenda nca mu bantu bagiye bapfuye, abo basize babatemaguye batari bubashe kugira icyo bimarira. Kubera ko nanjye bari bandashe ariko mu mugongo, nkapfa kugenda gutyo gusa. Kuko ndabyibuka, barashe ari muma saa moya, bamaze kurasa, ngerageza gusohoka muri urwo rupangu twari turimo. Kurusohokamo ariko bimbera ingorane ndende cyane, kubera ko hari abandi bantu bari bamaze kuzitira aho inyuma, bategereje ko hari uri busimbuke. Ariko noneho hagati ahongaho bategereza ko hari uri bukome, ubwo bari bamaze kwica mo indani bababwira bati: "nta kindi gisigaye mushobora kwinjira noneho mugatangira gusahura."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Basahura mpari mbareba, kuko nari nikinze ahantu ku nguni y'inzu. Ubwo déjà byamaze kuba, ubwo ninjira mu nzu, mfata icyo mbashije gufata igitenge, nzirika hano inyuma kuko haravaga cyane. Ngishyiraho, maze kugishyiraho ndasohoka, ndagenda nikinga ahongaho, baraza bakora ibyo bakora n'iki… ariko hari ibyo batabashije gutwara iryo joro, bagaruka bukeye. Ubwo bagarutse bukeye nibwo basanze nanjye maze kugenda.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ndateseka, ngira gute, nca mu bintu byinshi cyane, amabariyeri, ibintu nk'ibyo, ariko kubera ko nyine iyo umunsi w'umuntu utageze, nta kintu ushobora kuba. Ubwo…ubwo ndangije, nibwo Inkotanyi zaje kundokora, ariko nabwo bandokora ari uko duhuriye ahantu barwaniraga ariko bagenda bakura mo abantu bamwe, noneho banfonsa [bakomeza] bagenda aho barwaniraga.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nza kuharokokera gutyo banjyana mu bitaro, baramvura, kubera ko nari nararashwe, ariko bavura ibikovu gusa, ntibabasha gukuramo isasu ryari ririmo. Ubwo intambara irarangira mu kwa karindwi, ubwo nyine ibintu by'amashuri byari bitarajya ku murongo. Nibwo ubwo, F.A.R.G. [Ikigega Gishinzwe gutera Inkunga Abacitse Ku Icumu ry'Itsembabwoko] nyine batangiye kutubwira ngo twitabire ibintu byo kujya kwiga n'iki, tujya mubyo kwiyandikisha, batwohereza kwiga, kuko bagendaga ba disitiribiwa [bakwirakwiza] abanyeshuri muri za Minisiteri.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo mbasha kwiga, ariko kubera ko nari mfite ikibazo nyine cy'akaboko kubera urutugu ahantu barashe, kubera ko nari ntara…, mu mutwe nari ntara, ntaratungana neza. Ubuzima bukomeza gutyo, bukomeza gutyo, hakaba hari n'abandi bana nabo baba baragiye barokoka, bamwe na bamwe tugasanga nabo bari aho, tukagerageza kuganira ibyagiye bitubaho n'ibyo bagenzi bacu bagiye bahura nabyo mu ntambara, ariko ugasanga yuko ibyo bihe byari ibihe bibi cyane. Nta n'umuntu wabashaga kuba…urabona kugira ngo wice umuntu utakurwanya burya, byo buriya ni ikintu cy'ikibazo cyane. Urumva nta kuntu wakwicwa n'umuntu utakurwanya burya, urumva ni nk'aho ari intama burya, ushatse wamushinyagurira icyo wumva ushaka.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ni uko nyine tugira Imana tubona intambara irahagaze, ubuzima buratangira uko bisanzwe, yego ugasanga hari ibintu bimwe na bimwe bigorana mu buzima ariko kuva umuntu burya afite amahoro, ibindi burya umuntu agenda abishaka buhoro buhoro. Eh, ubwo nyuma y'aho nyine kugeza ubwo iki gihe tugezemo, ndabona ubuzima burimo bugenda nta kibazo, ok, hari ibintu by'ibibazo umuntu agenda ahura nabyo mu nzira, ibibazo by'ubuzima, ibintu nk'ibyo, ariko umuntu akagenda agerageza, agerageza uko bishobotse gushakisha ubuzima. Umuntu akavuga ati buriya Imana niyo ibizi kuko uko ibyagiye bigenda byose muri Jenoside no kuba abantu barabashije kurokoka, numva ko hagati cyane hashobora kuba harimo n'uruhare rw'Imana cyane kuko, abantu ubwabo bwo numvaga batari kuba bafite ingufu zihagije cyane gusa hatarimo ingufu z'Uwiteka.
FREDDY: Watubwiye ubuzima bwawe kuburyo burambuye. Ndagirango, numvaga nakubaza utubazo tumwe na tumwe; Ubundi watubwira amazina y'ababyeyi bawe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, ubundi Papa bamwitaga Macumi Francois, Mama yitwaga Umulisa Odeta.
FREDDY: Mukaba mwaravutse muri abana bangahe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Twari abanaa… babiri murugo, batatu. Twari batatu bari abahungu. Twese twari abahungu. Ubwo rero nyine nibo bapfuye bose aba ari njyewe urokokamo.
FREDDY: Ni wowe warokotsemo?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, muri bagenzi banjye.
FREDDY: Ufite imyaka ingahe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubu mfite makumyabiri n'itanu.
FREDDY: Tukiri mu buzima bwa mbere ya Jenoside, urabizi neza ko abantu bakundaga kugenda bahiga, bagatorezwa, bagafunga ibyitso bakagira gute na gute; ese iwanyu icyo kintu kigeze kihagera wenda kuburyo wowe cyangwa se ababyeyi bawe batotejwe ngo ube watunyuriramo muri make ukuntu batotejwe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, cyarahageze, cyarahageze cyane mu miryango, hari bamwe na bamwe bagiye bazira ibyo bintu, wenda nko mu miryango yacu yagiye yimurwa. Hari aho babaga batuye nko ku musozi, ariko kubera ko bavugaga bati: "harimo ibintu by'ibyitso by'Inyenzi hariya." Bikaba ngombwa ko nabo bagenda bimuka, kuburyo no murugo twaratotejwe icyo gihe tubura sécurité.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko umusaza wanjye yari umuntu ukunda gukora hanze, mu bintu byo hanze by'amasafari, ariko tugatotezwa ugasanga nijoro Interahamwe zateye mu rugo, bakubise inzugi, bagize gute. Ariko nyine umuntu agapfa kwihangana, kuko abo waregeraga kirya gihe ni nabo banabikoraga. Urumva rero ko hagati ahongaho ntabundi buryo umuntu yagombaga kuba yakwidefanda [kwirwanaho] uretse wenda guhamagara nk'abaturanyi ukababwira uti: "twagize ibyago ibi n'ibi," nabwo abo wishyikiraho wumvako bashobora kuba bagufitiye ikizere mufitanye ikizere. Ukababwira uti: "nahuye n'ibibazo ibi n'ibi," ariko nabo kubera ko nta kintu bagufashaga wenda bakakubwira bati: "gerageza ugire gutya cyangwa se ihangane cyangwa se gira gutya, nta kundi kuntu twabigenza."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ibyo bibazo byo twarabigize cyane kugeza n'ubwo Jenoside yagiye kuba mu rugo bamaze kuhatera nk'incuro nk'eshatu. Ariko ntibabashe kugira icyo bageraho.
FREDDY: Watubwiye ko hari abantu Bagiye bimura bo mu muryango wawe. Hari abo wibuka watubwira amazina, babakuraga he babajyana he?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ok, harimo nka mu…ok namwita nk'aho ari Marume, kuko cyo gihe we bari batuye hano i Gikondo ariko bakaba barabanje gutura i Kinazi. Bava i Kinazi, bamaze kuva i Kinazi bajya i Cyangugu, naho barabimura nibwo bagarutse gutura hano i Gikondo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: So, hagati aho rero igihe iby'ibyitso byari bikomeye, hari uwo bafashemo wacu. Baranamukubise ku buryo yanapfuye yarabaye umusazi, yitwaga Francois. Ubu Jenoside ejobundi niyo yabatsinze i Gikondo, ahantu bitaga ngo hari Interahamwe ikomeye bitaga Kongore [Congolais]. Bakaba rero nyine uwo mukecuru baramwitaga ko ariwe Nyinakazi w'Inyenzi muri Gikondo hariya. Ubwo nyine Jenoside niho yaje kubatsinda nyine, abandi bakagenda babaka ibyangombwa, ntibabashe gusohoka, ntibabashe gukora akazi. Bavuga ko iyo basohotse bagiye hanze, baba bajyanye amabanga y'Inyenzi, bagaruka bakaba aribyo babaga bagarukanye. Ariko bagerageza kubisaka ntibanabibone n'ibintu nk'ibyo… ariko ukumva ko hagati aho babaga mu muryango hari insécurité.
FREDDY: Muri make mu rugo rwanyu mwaziraga yuko…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ko ari ibyitso by'Inyenzi, ubundi bakazira yuko bafite abantu b'inshuti cyane hanze, ibintu nkibyo. Kubera ko hagati ya za avant 90[mbera ya mirongo cyenda], kuko nibwo abantu hanze bakundaga kuza mu gihugu cyane yenda gusura abavandimwe kugira gute…So ariko aho byamaze kubera ko byahise bihagarara. Ku buryo nta communication [imigenderanire] zongeye kubaho hagati aho ngaho.
FREDDY: Birazwi ko muri icyo gihe hari hariho intambara y'amoko, y'abahutu n'abatutsi. Watubwiye yuko papa wawe yakundaga kujya hanze, na maman wawe agasigara ahongaho, ubwo papa wawe yaziraga ko yakundaga kujya hanze? Cyangwa yaziraga ko ari umututsi…?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, yazira ko… we yaziraga, si nibyongibyo by'ubututsi we yaziraga ko avugisha ukuri, ubundi akazira ko yashatse mu mafamiye bitaga ko ari iy'inyenzi nyine ibintu nkibyo. Ubundi akazira ko nanone ari umuntu uvugisha ukuri, ari umuntu ukunda kugira inshuti cyane z'ahantu henshi cyane zitandukanye. Hakabamo n'ibintu by'amashyari nyine by'amako; iby'amoko bikajya ku ruhande, uturere ibintu nk'ibyo. Kuko n'ahantu twari dutuye hari habi cyane, ni ahantu mwumvaga bitaga ngo ni muri "Camp butaro", za mpunzi zavaga za Ruhengeri za he bose bazaga hariya mri ako gace.
FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya… kuko wambwi…wavuze ko bamuzizaga ko yavugishaga ukuri, ariko…uko yabyitwaragamo hagati ahongaho, n'iyo mwaganiraga avuga ati: "bariya bantu banziza iki?" Watubwira muri make ukuntu yabyitwaragamo?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubundi ikintu we bamuzizaga, bamuzizaga ko…icya mbere bamuzizaga ko ari umuntu donc… udakunda ibintu wenda twakwita ko nk'ahoari amashyari cyangwa se by'irondakoko cyangwa se irondakarere. Kandi bakanamuziza ko we yari wa muntu udatinya ibyo kuvuga ngo ndagutinya kuko uri umuntu, cyangwa se ndagutinya kubera yuko mbona ukora aya makosa wumve ko nyagushyigikiyemo, oya. Sasa bigatuma rero bavuga bati: "uyu muntu araturwanya, kuki dushaka gukora ibi, twe twamubwira ibingibi akabyanga." Byanakubitiraho ko yabaga yagiye nk'iyo mu masafari akatuzanira amakasete wenda Inkotanyi iki…zaba iza video zaba iza ba Kayirebwa ibintu kibyo. Bikaba rero nyine byaratumaga bagira ikintu cy'ako kabazo cyane. Kuko…
FREDDY: Mbese icyo bamuzizaga n'uko abandi bahutu bavuga bati: "uyu muhutu mwene wacu kuki adakora kimwe natwe?"
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nawe akababwira ati: "ibingibi ntabwo ariko bimeze."
FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya mukimara kumva ko indege ya Habyarimana yaguye, cyangwa bamaze kuyirasa. Mu rugo iwanyu babyakiriye bate?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Donc, njyewe ndabyibuka icyo gihe nari ndi muri étude umukecuru wanjye yari arimo yoza karumuna kanjye muri salon. Ubwo muzehe nawe yari afite akantu kameze nk'akabuvette aho yarimo asangira n'abandi bantu tugiye kumva twumva ko Habyarimana yapfuye. Ariko uko nabibonye nabonye ko ababyeyi bahise bahindura isura, ubwo urumva ko kiriya gihe twari abana ntabwo bashoboraga kudusobanurira buri kimwe cyose. Ariko nahise mbona harimo nk'akantu ko gukonja hagati y'ababyeyi, hagati y'abantu donc bari mu rugo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ubwo nyine nibwo bahise bavuga bati: "reka dutegereze turebe niba buri buke, niba buri buke amahoro." Icyo twakora icyo dushoboye ni uko ari uguhunga gusa. Ndibuka ko papa yavuze ati: "tayari birarangiye, ati: igisigaye ni uguhunga; ati: nitubona hakeye ari amahoro turahunga." Ariko bakaba baravugaga ko ubwo guhunga twashakaga guhungira he? Muri E.T.O. Kicukiro, kuko niho hantu kirya gihe wabashaga kuba wahungira. Ntabwo umuturanyi yari kubasha kuguhisha ntibishoboka. Kuko wicwaga n'umuntu ukuzi ntabwo umuntu yavaga hano ngo ajye kwica hariya.
Nshimiyimana Claude: N'abo babikoraga b'izo nterahamwe babikoraga ari uko hari umuntu w'umukuru muri bo, wababwiye ati: "mujye hariya", ariko yabaga ahazi. Biba ngombwa rero kugira ngo duhunge, ariko mu guhunga mu gitondo ntibyabashije, kuko abantu iryo joro bari batangiye gupfa. Amasasu yaraye avuga burinda bucya, bamwe ndetse n'aho twari dutuye bashinze amabariyeri [barrière] mu mihanda hafi y'iwacu aho hose, batangira kwica abantu gutyo.
FREDDY: Watubwira muri make ugakomeza uhereye mbese kuba yarabwiye ati: "duhunge," nyuma y'aho bya…, niba wibuka n'amatariki, uti: "igihe iki n'iki; hashize iminsi ibiri, cyangwa itatu wenda…kugeza ku rupfu rwe byagenze bite?"
Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gihe sinibuka ariko nzi ko twebwe…yeee ukuntu byagenze hagati aho, bakimara kurasa indege. Bukeye bwaho mugitondo, ndabyibuka ko yafunguye Muhabura nka saa…., nka saa kumi n'imwe gutyo arimo yumva amakuru. Ubwo noneho haza guterefona umugabo wari utuye ku Kicukiro bitaga Evode, Evode ariko akaba yari yarabyaye muri batisimu karumuna kanjye. Barimo baganira aramubwira ati: "sasa rero ukuntu ibintu bimeze, ntabwo dufite ubufasha bw'ukuntu dushobora kubaba twahunga hakiri kare, ikindi cya kabiri, n'abashobora kudutabara bari kure yacu cyane." Nta kuntu twagombaga gukora urugendo ruva ahangaha ngo tugere kuri C.N.D. ntibyari gushoboka.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Agerageza guterefona, abantu bagaterefona bo hanze babaza bati: "ese bite i Kigali bimeze gute? Tumaze kumva ko indege ya Habyarimana yarashwe, ariko se bimeze bite?" Arababwira ati: "twebwe dutegereje gusa ko hari ikindi kintu gishobora kuba wenda cyabaho," kuko bari bavuze ko abantu batagomba gusohoka mu mazu, nta n'uwemerewe gusohoka.Ariko abari bazi ubwenge bari bamaze kumenya ikigiye kuba icyo ari cyo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hagati ahongaho yakomeje kugenda yakira amaterefone yo hanze no hino, amubaza uko bimeze. Ababwira ati: "nanjye ahantu ndi, ati: ndi kumwe na famille yanjye ariko twabuze ahantu duca, ubu n'abari kwica bari kwicira imbere y'umuryango w'iwanjye hano, ati: hagati ahongaho ati: ndabona ari ibintu bikomeye.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hakaba hari undi musanzire we bari baturanye, nawe yari afite umudamu utwite kabisa, inda y'impanga. Kubera ko uwo musanzire wacu nawe yari afite barumuna be bandi, nabo bari bari kumwe munzu, Papa aramubwira ati rero ati aho kugira ngo, ntahantu uri bucishe uwo mudamu, ibyiza reka tumuzane umusige murugo, namwe buri umwe ace ukwe n'undi ukwe, ubwo uzarokoka azabara inkuru. Niko byagenze umudamu aza mu rugo, ubwo abandi nabo bakomeza guhunga ukwabo. Noneho uko abantu bakomeje kugenda bisuka mu rugo, ni nako interahamwe nazo zajyaga imigambi yo kugira ngo babe badutera.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko noneho mu kudutera bakaba baratinyaga ko ibyo ari byo byose muzehe ashobora kuba wenda yabarwanya. Ariko yaranabigerageje birananirana, kuko bari benshi. Kuko babanje kurasa portaille nini cyane babanje kuyirasa amasasu menshi irabananira kuko murugo baharwaniye iminsi ibiri, inzugi zanze gufunguka zo hanze z'amaportaille. Noneho nimugoroba nibwo bize umugambi kumugoroba, bashobora kurira ibipangu nibwo baguye mo imbere.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo twamaze nk'ibyumweru nka bibiri, bikiri ahongaho, amaterefone agicicikana n'iki… ubwo muri iyo quartier twari dutuyemo abandi bari bamaze guhunga, abandi bamaze gutwikirwa, abandi bamaze gupfa. Nta hantu donc na hamwe, umuntu ashobora kuba yabona yahungira.Ubwo nyuma y'ibyumweru bibiri kuko batwishe ari…, kuwa kangahe … kuwa gatanu mu ma saa kumi n'ebyiri. Sinibuka amatariki neza, ariko nzi ko ari nka nyuma y'ibyumweru bibiri.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo, nibwo binjiye ari nimugoroba, baraza barasimbuka urupangu, barasa urugi rw'imbere urw'imbere rurakinguka. Nibwo bazaga mu rupangu bagezemo, baravuga bati, ubwo twari twifungiranye. Baravuga bati: "mukingure." Muzehe aravuga ati: "ninkingura, byose ni hahandi nta kundi kuntu turi bubigenze n'ubundi, bararasa inzugi ni hahandi bari bwifungurire ku ngufu."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo yasohotse rero agerageza kurwana n'abari imbere mu muryango, birananirana, nibwo bamukubise urusasu yikubita hasi, ubwo abandi nibwo babashije kujya mu mazu rero, bati: "mwese musohoke hanze." Barasohoka. Cyari ikirongo kiva…, yari umurongo munini cyane kabisa, w'abantu benshi cyane benshi… kuko njyewe mperuka urusaku rw'abantu, sinakubwira ngo iki. Ubundi nyuma y'aho nabonaga abafite impiri numva bagenda bacoca, kuko bari mo ingeri nyinshi. Bamwe bararasaga abandi bakagenda barangiza, n'impiri, n'intuza n'imipanga n'iki…
FREDDY: Ntiwatubwiye neza ariko uwo murongo w'abantu. Wari uturutse he? Ni abari bahahungiye...?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Uwo murongo w'abantu, uwo murongo w'aba… abari bari mu rugo ni abari bari mu rupangu n'ubundi bari bahahungiye. Kuko Muzehe yarabaterefonnye arababwira ati: "mwebwe nimubona binaniranye, bamwe mubohereze hano murugo, abandi mucicikane, buri umwe ahunge ukwe ahunge ukwe, ntimugende muri mwese. Kuko nibabatega, bashobora kubatega bakabica mwese. Ibyiza, mwohereze abo mushoboye, ab'abasore barimo cyangwa se inkumi zikirimo, bumva bafite ingufu, mushakishe uburyo buri umwe agende ukwe ukwe, ntimugende muri benshi.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ku bwe nyine yabonaga ko bitashoboka kuko cyane cyane yababazwaga n'abo bana batoya, n'abo bagore babo batari bubashe kwiruka, bari bugende bica umugenda. Ariko nk'umuntu w'umugabo aravuga ati: "byibura barandwanya ndi bwiruke bandase wenda cyangwa se bankubite umuheto [kumurasa n'umuheto] nkomeze ariko wenda kugeza igihe ndibuze gupfira, ariko tudapfanye n'umuryango wose."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, ubwo rero uwo murongo badusohoye twari benshi, badushyira hanze. Ubwo barasa uwo babanzagaho nyine wabo, ubwo barakomeza, jye bandashe ndi uwa… ndi uwa gatanu.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Bamaze kundasa, ariko ubwo mu kundasa akaba yarandasaga njye nshaka gutoroka. Kuko ahantu twari twicaye hari hari ikintu k'ikigunguzi kiri hejuru cy'amabuye, ariko hakaba hari akantu k'akaryango k'inyuma bari bagize barashe karafunguka, ubwo noneho bo binjira ari benshi kuburyo uwo muryango narawurebaga nkabona ko nta muntu uhahagaze. Sasa muri kwa kujya guhaguruka gutya nibwo yahise andasa hano [yerekana mu irugu] nikubita hasi. Ubwo nikubise hasi, niba yaraketse ko napfuye simbizi. Anca hejuru, arasa ubwo abandi bari bari iruhande rwanjye
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo barangije, umwe ati: "ariko, ati: ibi ntibihagije, ati: nimufungure grenade." Baba barayifunguye. N'ubungubu mfite ahantu zamfashe hano, mfitemo fragment ebyiri. Ubwo uko zagakubise, zarakubise ubwo nanjye iba iranyinjiye, ariko mu kunyinjira, numvise ari nk'akantu kameze nk'urushinge. Sinabyitaho, ndavuga nti: sasa nimpumeka, abantu baranyumva.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nanjye nguma muri ya maraso ndaceceka ndaturiya gusa…Ariko ubwo ishati ubwo inyuma yahindutse amaraso, abandyamye hejuru bose babaye amaraso. Ubwo jyewe icyo nakoze naracecetse gusa, ndaceceka ndabyihorera basubiramo batera grenade, abandi bakajya bagenda bakandagira bajomba ibyuma, sinzi uwaje kunjomba ubwo icyuma ariko arahusha, kijomba muri pasiparume hasi ariko naracyumvaga kabisa ko ari njye yaje aje kukijomba; arongera arazamura ajomba hano [ yerekanye ku rutugu], arebye asanga amaraso arava, aravuga ati: " ibyo ari byo byose nta wugihumeka urimo."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo bazamukaga. Ariko muri uko kuzamuka ubwo bazamukaga mbareba. Noneho icyo nakoze nahise negura umutwe, ngize ntya ngize gutya, nsanga abantu bose nta n'umwe uri kuvuga, bose babaye intumbi intumbi bose. Ndabyuka ndahagarara. Gusa ikintu njyewe nibuka nakoze, ninjiye munzu, nsohora ikiringiti, imvura yaragwaga, kinini cyane; ndorosa. Maze korosa icyo nafashe nahise mfata igitenge cy'umukecuru ndakitera.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ariko ubwo nkumva nabaye igishushungwe ndavuga, ese: njye munzu ndyame? Numvaga nta n'umutima ngifite, bya bindi byo kuvuga ngo umuntu ararira, numvaga nta n'amarira, habe n'igitonyanga. Gusa ahubwo natekerezaga ibintu bimbayeho izo saha, nkumva nanjye binshobeye.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Mu gihe nkiri muri ibyongibyo, baba barasimbutse na none baragarutse. Bagarutse kubera ko ishati yanjye nari nayitaye aho, kuko bwari bumaze no kwira, hahise haba urufaya rw'amasasu menshi. Kuko mu rugo baharasiye amasasu menshi cyane ariko. Menshi menshi, kuburyo n'abandi bantu bari batuye ahongaho b'abaturanyi n'iki… nyuma y'aho ngira ngo bamwe banatangiye no guhunga, abandi batekereza ko ahari ashobora kuba ari Inkotanyi zirimo kurwana n'Interahamwe. Gusa abenshi babimenye mu gitondo, bamwe bashungereye, abandi baje gusahura, ubwo nibwo jyewe nahise mva ahongaho. Ubwo maze guhunga nyine nanjye…ariko ubwo hagati ahongaho muri iyo minsi yose ukuntu Jenoside yagiye igenda hagati y'iyo minsi, ni ukonguko byagiye bigenda nyine, ni ibyo nagiye mbona hagati ahongaho.
FREDDY: Waba uzi urupfu rw'abo mwavukanaga ndetse n'urwa mama wawe? Watubwiye ko papa we bamurashe.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Yee, Umukecuru nawe baramurashe gusa, yari umuntu w'umurokore ukunda kwisengera, numvaga za Yezu Kristu gusa. Ubwo barumuna banjye nabo ubwo, bari begeranye gutya. Kuko babicaje ku murongo, bari bicaye ku murongo nk'uko twaba twicaye gutya. Ubwo abandi numva induru ku ruhande…iki, hakaba ariko hari harimo umutante wanjye umwe, ni uko nyine nta kundi byari kugenda ariko iyo abasha nko kubona ubufasha wenda aba yaranakize kuko we yampfiriye mu ntoki kabisa gutya. Nta bundi bufasha nari mfite, nta ki… yari afite inda y'impanga, ubona kabisa ko agifite umwuka.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko nta kindi kintu nari kubasha gukora nanjye, numvaga nanjye ntazi ukuntu nabaye. Kuko we mamusize ahongaho bimaze kurangira, nibwo njyewe nahise ngenda. Ariko ubwo muri uko kubyuka, nta n'umwe wakomaga, Umukecuru we bari barangije kumurangiriza, bamaze kumurasa, bamurashe amasasu atatu. Abiri yaciye hano irindi rica hano, barumuna banjye bo bagiye babakubitagura ubuhiri, amasasu aha [yerekanye mu mutwe] n'iki, kuko yari umuvu munini cyane w'amaraso menshi cyane.
FREDDY: Ariko warahavuye ntiwongeye kumenya ngo…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nta kindi kintu nongeye kumenya. Gusa icyo nzi cyo nongeye kumenya nyuma yaho ni uko gusa naje intambara irangiye byabindi nyine, Jenoside imaze kurangira, ubwo aribwo igihugu kigitangira nyine kwisanasana n'iki. Nibwo naje nsanga intumbi gusa ziri aho mu rupangu hose zirajyaye, ahantu hose. Mbasha gushaka abamfasha, kuko hariho abandi bacitse ku icumu bagenzi banjye bo kuri uwo murenge, babashije wenda kumfasha kuba umuntu yapfa kubarenzaho agataka gusa kugira ngo umuntu arebe…
FREDDY: Icyo gihe washoboraga kumenya ababyeyi bawe cyangwa…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gihe ntabwo nabashaga kubamenya buretse nk'ipantaro papa yari yambaye n'igitenge umukecuru yari yambaye. Ok, wenda na burumuna bwanjye nabwo nabashaga kumenya wenda nk'igice cy'umwenda yari yambaye, ikabutura cyangwa se ishati, ibintu nk'ibyongibyo.
FREDDY: Wabashije kubashyingura mu cyubahiro?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Mu cyubahiro ntabwo byabashije, kubera ko kirya gihe urabona ubuzima bwari, abantu niyo bari bakiva mu bibazo n'igihugu ariyo kigitangira kwisuganya kugira ngo barebe ko batangira kudemara. Urebye ntabwo twakoze ibintu bindi bihambaye nta kindi, twafashe gusa, dushaka imyenda myiza n'iki, ni uko turabasasira mo indani, turenzaho itaka. Gusa icyo twakoze twamennyeho ikintu cy'igisima cyo hejuru gusa nta kindi kintu.
FREDDY: Watubwira muri makeya kuva uvuye aho kugeza Inkotanyi zifatiye igihugu. Ubuzima bwawe bwari… watubwira muri make uko wabayeho?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa hagati aho muri Jenoside bwo narasufuye [naratesetse] cyane, kuko nagiye mpura n'ibibazo kandi…
FREDDY: Kuva uvuye mu rugo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Mvuye mu rugo ubwo narakomeje ndagenda, ariko ubwo muri uko gukomeza, niko ngifite n'abampiga inyuma, kuko bagerageje gushakisha ahantu hose, bava ndetse n'aho bitaga ku Kicukiro bajya i Gikondo. Ahandi hantu twari dufite amazu, baza kureba ko wenda abantu b'aho aribo baba bampishe. Ahubwo basanga na hariya sinigeze mpagera.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo hagati ahongaho aho souffrance [imibabaro] zirangiye, nibwo maze guhura n'inkotanyi nabashije nabo kubasobanurira ibibazo nahuye nabyo, mbabwira n'aho narokokeye. Bagerageza kumfasha uko bishoboka, barambwira bati: "ese bite?" Ndababwira nti: gusa ikibazo mfite ni imvune, kandi murabona hari haraboze kabisa, kuko nta muti nabonaga nta n'ikintu nabonaga kimvura. Babasha kunyondora, n'iki. Barambwira bati: "genda usubire mu buzima bwawe busanzwe." Ariko ubu hagati aha ibyo aribyo byose ndabona ubuzima bwanjye, ok, si bwiza cyane, ariko nta n'ubwo ari bubi, kuko burya iyo ubasha kuryama mu mahoro, ukaramuka, ubuzima burakomeza.
FREDDY: Ukimara kubonana n'Inkotanyi zikakubwira ngo ujye mu buzima bwawe busanzwe, wakoze iki hagati ahongaho, wagiye he? Wabanye na nde? Ikigutunga wakibonaga ute?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Hagati ahongaho…ubwo… ukuntu byagenze ubwo nyuma, bamaze kundeka ubwo nibwo nahise njya ku Kicukiro, hakaba hari umuntu wo muri famille wari waraharokotse. Ariko nawe, nkaba nibuka ko, eh, intuza… intambara igeze, nyuma wenda y'icyumweru kimwe. Bakaba bari bamaze kutumenyesha ko bo déjà badutanze gupfa. Numvaga rero ibyo ari byo byose nabo batakiriho, ubwo ndagenda njya i Remera hafi na IAMCA [aho K.I.E iri ubu].
Nshimiyimana Claude: Nibwo naje kubona umugabo umwe wari uvuye i Buganda, ok nawe yari aziranye no mu rugo.Aza kunjyana kwiga i Bugande nigayo igihe gitoya ndagaruka, ino ahangaha ndiyandikisha ndakomeza ndiga buhoro buhoro buhoro. Ariko uko narebye nabonaga ubuzima ibyo aribyo byose uko nagiye mbubamo…ubwo n'ukonguko byagiye bigenda, nkahura n'abantu b'inshuti abari inshuti ab'inshuti sinzi cya… nabo wenda ba… bangirira impuhwe kubera ibibazo mfite n'akandimo. Ubuzima bugenda bugenda gutyo…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kugeza ubwo naje kumenyera nsubira mu Buzima busanzwe. Nkanavuga nti ibyo ari byo byose n'ubwo na jenoside yabaye ibyo ari byo byose ibyabaye, ibyo aribyo byose ariko umuntu agomba gushaka ubuzima. N'ubwo umuntu atabyibagirwa ariko ubuzima bugomba gukomeza.
FREDDY: Washoboye ku...kwiga? Urangiza se…?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Umh amashuli sinarangije kuyarangiza ariko nabashije kwiga ngera kuri au niveau [ku rwego] ku buryo nshobora kuba wenda nashaka gushaka Ubuzima, ariko n'ubu nda Préfèra [ndahitamo] kubisubiramo n'uko hari utubazo tukinzitiye gato.
FREDDY: Mu myigire yawe n'iki cyakugoraga?
FREDDY: Wigeze kutubwira y'uko watesetse cyane. Ibyo aribyo byose ntabwo wadusobanuriye neza uko guteseka…
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh, guteseka kwanjye ukuntu byagenze…
FREDDY: Ukuntu byagenze mu buzima rusange usibye ibyo byose, mu buzima rusange watesetse gute kuva ababyeyi bawe ukimara kubabura kugeza ubu, wumva ari iki cyagutushije kugeza ubu?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ok, kuba nabura ababyeyi? Ok! Icya mbere, nagiye mu buzima ntari menyereye, surtout [cyane cyane] kubera ko burya iyo uri kumwe n'ababyeyi kandi ukiri na mutoya, burya hari ibintu…hari imyaka burya ugeramo, wenda bamaze kugukuza nawe ukamenya aho niveau y'ukuntu ushobora kuba waba washaka ubuzima bwawe. Ariko ubwo naringiye mu buzima ntamenyereye.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuba nta muntu mfite ushobora kuba wamfasha wenda mu bitekerezo runaka, wenda mvuge nti nkeneye iki mbe nahita nkibona. Ibyo nabyo byari ibintu byagiye bingora. No kuba byonyine gusa… n'ibyo nabonye byonyine, n'ukuntu nabonye ukuntu abantu bapfa, n'ukuntu nagiye mbona nsimbuka intumbi, abo nagiye ngeraho nziko aribo bashobora kundokora ahubwo nkabona nabo barashaka kunyica. Kugeza ubwo naje guhura n'Inkotanyi.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuko ndabyibuka hari umugabo wa hano twahuriye niba ari…hano munsi ya sainte famille, ambwira ko agiye kundokora. Ariko twageze ahantu mbona ahubwo ahantu anjyanye, ni ku cyobo. Ndamutoroka ndiruka. Nkwepera mu bantu bari bari ahongaho ntiyamenya ahanyu ndengeye.
Nshimiyimana Claude: So, nagiye mbona rero ibintu bigiye bitandukanye cyane mu buzima, nkagenda mbona ukuntu abantu bafite ibibazo, nkareba ukuntu nyuma y'aho Jenoside birangiriye ukuntu Imfubyi zagiye zihura n'ibibazo, cyangwa se nanjye ibyo nagiye mbona n'iki. N'ubuzima nagiye menyera ntari menyereye. Uko Imana yagiye imfasha ubu maze kubimenyera. Burya yego baravuga ngo: "akabi ntikamenyerwa nk'akeza," ariko bigera aho ukabimenyera bitewe na cas [n'ubuzima] urimo.umh
FREDDY: Ibyo aribyo byose nanjye ndabizi ko ubuzima bwo kuba Imfubyi buragora. Ariko ni iki wakoraga kugirango ugerageze kwikemurira ibibazo byawe hagati y'aho?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Eh! Icyo nakoraga ubwo…ok. Na…nabashaga byibura kuko hari ahantu wenda nabashije kuba nabona hashobora kunyokipa [nakorera] hamwe hahoze ari iwacu, aho ho wenda ndabishimira Imana kubera ko ntakodesha wenda. Ibindi wenda nko mu bibazo byerekeranye na za minerval ntabwo byangoraga kubera ko icyo gihe wenda Ikigega cyabashaga kudufasha rimwe na rimwe. Ariko urumva nabo badufashaga muri ibyo by'amashuli nabyo ukabona ko ari byiza, ubwo wenda uvuga uti: "reka nige ubumenyi wenda ejo nanjye mbone uko nzibeshaho."
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ubwo nyine ubuzima bukagenda gutyo. Uwo mbashije kubwira igitekerezo cyanjye, yabona ari ngombwa ko amfasha akamfasha. Kuza kugeza ubwo numva maze kabisa kumenyera, no kuba maze kwigira hejuru, numva ari ibintu bishimishije cyane.
FREDDY: Wumva kuri wowe ari iki wibuka kikakubabaza kurusha ibindi, muri wowe; kandi kikagutesha kuba wakwishima. Ni nk'iki wumva wibuka kikakubabaza cyane?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Kuba ntarikumwe n'abavandimwe, kuba ntaaa ok nta famille,ibyo nabyo biri mubintu byamberekubaho ntafite uwo mbwira ibibazo byanjye ngwabe yabicyemura , surtout ugasanga icyo kintu ,nkicara wenda nkavuga nti: iki kintu nakagombye kukibona murubu buryo.Ariko se ko mbona ntawe mfite ukimfashamo byagenda gute? bigatuma mpitan nibuka ntubu iki gihe ikiniki iyo umubyeyi yarikuba ari hafi cyangwe undi muvandimwe yakabimfashijemo.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa ntibice intege, kandi na none nkababazwa ubuzima imfubyi barimo ku viva [kubaho] butakagombye kuba ngombwa. Na none ugasanga wenda muri… surtout muri nk'imfubyi eshatu enye, ariko mwese ugasanga ntacyo mumariranye, nabyo ugasanga ari agahinda na none.
FREDDY: Ibyo aribyo byose, eh bigaragara ko niyo waba uri imfubyi ugomba… ubuzima bugomba gukomeza.
Nshimiyimana Claude: ee, kabisa ibyo byo mbona ko bugomba gukomeza…n'ubu buranakomeza rwose.
FREDDy: Eh! Ndagira ngo nkawe wabinyuzemo ufite éxpérience [inararibonye] y'ubuzima bugoye nk'ubwo, ni iyihe nama wagira abantu bafite ubuzima nk'ubwawe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa inama nabagira, Ikintu cya mbere nabaha Moral. Bakamenya ko mu buzima biriya ni ibintu, ok byabayeho kubera y'uko abantu kirya gihe bari babaye inyamaswa kubera na politique mbi. Ikindi kintu nabagiraho inama, ni uko uwumva afite ubu afite occasion yo kuba igihe cye yagikoresha neza, akaba yagikoresha. Niba abashije kwiga akiga, niba abashije se kubona ako kazi akakabona, niba se hari n'uwo iwabo wenda baba bararangiye ariko afite n'ako ga Parcelle wenda basenye; nkaba mubwira ko igihe cyose yaba afite possibilité ishoboka nawe ashobora kuba wenda yasubizamo…wenda nawe iye. Agasubizamo umuryango, mu gihe cyose azaba afite… possibilité zishoboka kuzikoresha. Igihe cye akaba yagikoresha neza. Njye ndumva ari cyo kintu nabagiraho Inama.
FREDDy: Ikindi kibazo nagiraga ngo ngusabe watubwira, ku bantu babikoze. Bakoze ibyo bintu. Ni ubuhe butumwa wabaha?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Njyewe gusa ikintu cya mbere ubutumwa nabaha. Byo nibabanze bemere ko amakosa koko bayakoze. Hanyuma nibamara kwemera ko bishe, ubwo ibindi byo biza bizoroha. Kubera ko niba uhakana ko utishe umuntu, kandi byemezwa hari n'abakwemeza ko wishe. Njye numva ibyiza ari uko wakwemera ko icyo cyaha wagikoze.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Noneho wamara kwemera ko wagikoze, ubwo ibyo aribyo byose niba ari n'ibihano uzabigabanyirizwa cyangwa se ukuri kuzabakugaragaye. Wenda nibyo bavuga ngo: "umuntu yanakubabarira," wenda ndumva no kubabarirwa wenda sinaku… hari abatanga imbabazi hari n'abatazitanga. Ariko, babanze bemere bati: "twakoze icyaha, twarishe koko twamennye amaraso." Ubwo nibamara kwemera ko ibyo bintu kabisa ko icyaha bagikoze ibindi bizoroha. Ariko mu gihe batemera ko icyo cyaha bagikoze, kandi hari n'ababi… n'ibimenyetso wenda bibagaragaza ko babikoze koko. Numva ibyiza ko ari uko babyemera ko babikoze. Yee.
FREDDY: Abantu baba bara…rirokotse iri tsembabwoko bo wabaha ubuhe butumwa?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa namuha inama yo kugira ngo ase nk'umuntu ubyirengagiza gato, abanze akomeze ubuzima. Ashake ubuzima namara kubona ubuzima azabona ko n'ibindi [arimyoza] byoroshye.Yee, gusa ntibiteze kumushiramo, ibyo ntibishoboka. Ariko byibura azarebe uburyo abyikarumamo [yakwiyumanganya] nawe arebe ubundi buryo yabigenza. Gusa ashake ubuzima kuko niko bigenda. Kuko n'abatwicaga bumvaga ko tudashobora kurokoka, bumvaga ko no kuba twararokotse ni… bo bumva ari inzozi kuri bo. Ntushobora kumva ukuntu ushobora kuza ukica tuvuge umuryango w'abantu ijana, harokokamo umuntu umwe. Bo bumvaga ko bidashoboka ariko Imana yo yaberetse ko buri kintu cyose gishoboka. Umh.
FREDDY: Iki gikorwa cyo kwibuka abantu bajya bakora, wowe ukivugaho iki?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Icyo gikorwa njye ndagishima cyane ni na kiza, kuko nta kuntu ushobora kubona Milliyoni hafi zingahe zapfuye. Ngo tu turenzeho duse nk'aho… tuvuge ngo byaribagiranye? Oya ntabwo byashoboka. Iki gikorwa ni kiza kugirango… iyo cas icyo gihe buri muntu wese bazajya bavuga bati: "iki gihugu habaye amahano aya n'aya yatewe n'impamvu izi n'izi, ariko noneho icyi gikorwa dukora cyo kwibuka abagiye bapfa mu ma Jenoside n'ibiki… Giha n'abandi urugero, giha n'ibindi bihugu urugero, bakavuga bati: "iki gihugu ibyabaye koko ni ibintu bibi kandi ntibizongere. Gusa nkabona ko iki gikorwa ari kiza cyane kugirango gikangurire abantu kumenya aho igihugu cyacu kigana, n'ayo mahano yabaye ko atazongera kuba.
FREDDY: Nagira ngo nkubaze ikindi kibazo, urabyumva ko uri mu buzima utakwiye kuba urimo iyo uba ugifite ababyeyi, ariko nanone wifuza ko wagira ubuzima bwiza. Muri make wumva ari nde wabigiramo uruhare kugira ngo ubuzima bwawe bwongere bube bwiza ushyire n'umutima hamwe?
Nshimiyimana Claude: Gusa, ibyo byo kugira ngo umuntu abigiremo uruhare byo… ndumva cyane cyane. Ok, na F.A.R.G [Ikigega gishinzwe gutera inkunga abacitse ku icumu ry'itsembabwoko batishoboye] ikoresha uko ishoboye ibasha gufasha bamwe, ababaho ubuzima bugoye ikabasha kubagira inama, uburyo bashobora kubyifashamo. Ariko numva cyane cyane ibyo ari byo byose ubuzima ubundi umuntu yagakwiye kugira, si ukuvuga ngo wifuze ibyo utazabona, cyangwa ngo umuntu akwizeze ibyo atazaguha.
Nshimiyimana Claude: Ibyo ntibiba bishoboka, ariko iyo ubashije kuba ukiriho, ukabasha kuba ufite aho uruhukira. Ushobora kwakirira umushyitsi wawe, ukabasha kuba wagira ikintu cy'umunsi mukuru, ugasurwa n'inshuti, kuko ubwo za nshuti muba musigaranye nibo bavandimwe bawe. Inshuti cyane cyane. Ndavuga inzima ariko; nibo baba ari abavandimwe bawe, mukabasha gusurana, donc mugakora ikintu kimeze nka community [umuryango] ku buryo, nawe ubona ko utari wenyine. Ni uko ufite abantu bagusura, bakwegera, muganira, ukishima nawe ukabona ko… yaba ari igitekerezo kizima mukaba mwabasha kugifashanya mu buryo mushoboye; byaba se ari ibintu by'amaporoje [projet] "imishinga,"byaba se ari ukwiga mukabasha gufashanya mu bintu by'ama étude se cyangwa by'iki…ibintu nk'ibyongibyo by'iterambere. Numva ari byo bintu byabasha kuba byiza.

French Translation

Claude: Je m'appelle Nshimiyimana Claude. Nous habitions à Kicukiro, secteur Ngoma, zone Ngoma.
Claude: Avant le Génocide je vivais avec mes parents, j'étais à l'école primaire. La vie était bien puisqu'on nous payait nos études mes frères et moi. Nous étions bien en famille, sans problème…
Claude: Mais après, les temps ont changé, la dure période de 1994 arriva. Nous avons commencé à souffrir des problèmes de Génocide à partir du mois d'avril, des gens sont devenus sujets de chasse… j'ai perdu ma famille, j'avais une famille d'environ 60 personnes. Tout le monde est mort, il ne reste plus que moi.
Claude: C'est arrivé mais moi j'ai pu survivre. Il était vers 18 heures et demie quand ils sont arrivés, ils formaient un groupe de plus de 200 personnes. Je me souviens bien que les militaires sont venus en premier, les Interahamwe après. Ces Interahamwe suivaient tous les mouvements au cas ou un survivant s'échappait, ils devaient l'achever. C'était ça leur boulot: achever.
Claude: Il y avait des femmes enceintes, des parents, des amis mais parmi tous ces gens, j'ai été le seul à survivre. C'était un soir, ils nous ont fusillé, ils étaient très nombreux. Lorsque j'ai pu me relever pour voir s'il y avait quelqu'un d'autre en vie…personne! Il n'y avait qu'un fleuve de sang.
Claude: Mais ce temps là j'étais complètement paralysé, je ne pouvais rien faire mais il s'est avéré nécessaire que je cherche un moyen de sortir de là. Sortir était un vrai problème, il faisait noir, je ne pouvais pas distinguer le chemin.
Claude: Je leur ai ainsi échappé. En fait, ils m'avaient tiré dans le dos puis j'avais laissé ma chemise [par terre], elle était verte. Ils ne s'en sont rendus compte que le lendemain alors qu'ils étaient venus piller. C'est en remarquant ma chemise qu'ils ont su que quelqu'un leur avait échappé. Ils ont fait de leur mieux pour me retrouver, ils avaient même fait passe des communiqués en disant: « si nous le trouvons caché chez l'un d'entre vous, cette personne aura des problèmes. » Mais puisque je n'étais pas dans les environs…j'avais continué, c'était en pleine période de pluie, les gens se réfugiaient à l'ETO [Ecole Technique Officielle], j'ai cherché un moyen d'aller à l'ETO moi aussi mais je n'ai pas pu. Entre temps je n'avais aucun autre moyen.
Claude: J'ai utilisé tous les moyens possibles mais je n'ai pas pu. Je passais à tous les endroits où vivaient des membres de la famille mais partout où j'arrivais, ils étaient déjà tous morts.
Claude: La guerre a continué, je passais entre les cadavres et ceux qui agonisaient encore, ceux qui ne pouvaient plus rien faire de leur vie… j'avais été blessé par balle dans le dos, je me rappelle que c'était vers 19 heures que j'avais été blessé, de là où j'étais pour arriver au portail c'était une chose difficile pour moi. Sortir était encore plus compliqué parce qu'il y avait des Interahamwe dehors qui attendaient que quelqu'un saute la clôture pour qu'ils en finissent avec lui. Ils attendaient le moindre geste, ils en avaient déjà fini dans la maison puis après ils ont reçu l'autorisation de piller.
Claude: Je m'étais caché derrière un coin de la maison, je les ai vus piller…je suis ensuite entré dans la maison, j'ai pris ce que je pouvais…j'ai pris un pagne que j'ai attaché au dos parce que je saignais beaucoup. Je me suis ensuite caché dans un coin, ils ont fait ce qu'ils avaient à faire [piller] mais il y a des choses qu'ils n'ont pas pu déplacer ce jour là, ils sont revenus le lendemain. Le lendemain quand ils sont revenus, j'étais déjà parti.
Claude: J'ai souffert par la suite, j'ai traversé plusieurs obstacles, les barrières, des choses comme ça…seulement si ton jour n'est pas encore arrivé, rien ne peut t'arriver. Ensuite, les Inkotanyi sont arrivés, ils m'ont sauvé.Je les ai croisés sur le champ de bataille, ils avançaient en combattant et en même temps sauvaient des vies humaines.
Claude: C'est comme ça que j'ai survécu, ils m'ont ensuite emmené à l'hôpital parce que j'avais été blessé mais il ne s'agissait que de soigner la cicatrice car ils n'ont pas été en mesure d'enlever la balle du dos. Ensuite la guerre se termina, le programme d'étude n'était pas encore assez solide, mais le FARG [Fond d'Assistance aux Rescapés du Génocide] nous mobilisaient pour aller à l'école. Nous avons fait l'inscription puis on nous a envoyé à l'école. Ce temps là, les élèves étaient repartis par les ministères.
Claude: Je suis allé à l'école mais j'avais toujours un problème de bras à cause de la blessure entre les épaules, même que je n'étais pas encore psychologiquement stable…la vie a continué comme ça, il y avait aussi des collègues qui avaient vécu ces périodes là, nous nous racontions mutuellement ce qui nous était arrivés à nous et à nos proches pendant la guerre. En général c'était des atrocités, même celui qui pouvait…. Tuer quelqu'un qui n'a rien contre toi, c'est très mauvais ! c'est comme tuer un agneau, tu peux lui faire tout ce que tu veux…
Claude: Mais Dieu merci la guerre est finie. Nous avons recommencé une nouvelle vie. C'est sûr qu'il y a des difficultés mais il y a quand même la paix. Les autres choses sont à chercher avec le temps. Depuis ce temps jusqu'à l'heure actuelle, je trouve que ça va…il y a bien sûr des difficultés que l'on rencontre en chemin, des problèmes de la vie courante, mais je me dis que Dieu seul sait pourquoi nous avons survécu. Je me dis que Dieu joue un rôle important parce que je me dis que les gens ne seraient pas aussi forts sans la puissance de Dieu.
Freddy: Tu viens de nous parler de ta vie en large, je voudrais te poser quelques questions… Peux-tu tout d'abord me dire les noms de tes parents ?
Claude: Mon père s'appelait Macumu François et ma mère Umulisa Odette.
Freddy: Vous étiez au nombre de combien dans ta famille ?
Claude: Nous étions deux…plutôt trois. Tous des garçons. Ils sont tous morts, je suis le seul survivant.
Freddy: Tu es le seul à avoir survécu ?
Claude: Oui, parmi tous mes frères.
Freddy: Quel âge as-tu ?
Claude: 25 ans.
Freddy: Si j'insistais un peu sur la vie avant le Génocide, tu sais que des gens étaient persécutés, emprisonnés comme traîtres…serait-ce arrivé dans votre zone que toi ou tes parents aient été persécutés pour que tu nous le racontes un peu?
Claude: Oui, cela a eu lieu. Dans la famille, certains ont été contraints à déménager parce que les gens disaient qu'ils cachaient des Inyenzi. Ils étaient traités comme des traîtres jusqu'à ce qu'ils se sentent obligés de déménager. C'est arrivé à la maison, nous avons été persécutés…nous n'étions pas en sécurité.
Claude: Au fait mon père voyageait souvent dans le cadre de son travail…nous étions menacés, les Interahamwe venaient la nuit, frappaient à la porte, faisaient n'importe quoi. Mais on n'y pouvait rien puisque ceux à qui on aurait pu plaider notre cause étaient les auteurs de ces troubles. Tu comprends donc qu'on ne pouvait rien faire, il n'y avait aucun moyen de se défendre à part appeler les voisins et leur dire les problèmes qu'on a eu. Et puis tu en parlais à un voisin en qui tu avais confiance. Tu leur expliquais ton problème mais puisqu'ils ne pouvaient pas faire grand chose pour toi, ils te disaient de faire ceci ou cela ou alors de supporter puisqu'ils ne pouvaient rien pour toi !
Claude: Nous avons été persécutés chez nous et le Génocide a même eu lieu Après que nous ayons été attaques à trois reprises sauf qu'ils [les Interahamwe ] n'arrivaient pas à faire quoi que ce soit
Freddy: Tu nous as dit qu'il y a des gens de ta famille qui ont été contraints de déménager. Te souviens-tu de leurs noms, ils déménageaient pour emménager où?
Claude: Ok, mon…je dirais que c'était mon oncle, il vivait ici à Gikondo mais il y avait d'abord vécu avec sa famille à Kanazi, de Kanazi ils ont emménagé à Cyangugu, là encore ils ont été force de déménager, ils sont ensuite venus vivre ici à Gikondo.
Claude: Mais entre temps, durant la période des traîtres, un membre de la famille a été arrêté, il a été battu jusqu'au point de devenir fou. Il s'appelait François, il est mort durant le Génocide à Gikondo, là où il y avait un Interahamwe impitoyable surnommé ‘Congolais'. La vieille de François était surnommée la mère des Inkotanyi dans toute la zone de Gikondo. C'est là qu'ils ont été tués durant le génocide. Les autres ne pouvaient ni sortir ni avoir du travail à cause de la carte d'identité. Parce qu'on disait que lorsque quelqu'un sortait, il rapportait des informations secrètes aux Inyenzi puis revenait avec d'autres. Mais quand ils se mettaient à fouiller, ils ne trouvaient rien du tout. C'était toujours comme ça…c'était l'insécurité à chaque fois qu'ils se plantaient à ta porte.
Freddy: Bref chez vous, vous étiez persécutés parce que…
Claude: Parce qu'on nous prenait pour des traites des Inyenzi. On nous détestait parce qu'on avait des amis à l'étranger, des trucs comme ça. Parce qu'avant 1990, les gens de l'extérieur venaient visiter les leurs dans le pays mais après tout s'est arrêté de sorte qu'il n'y a plus eu de communication avec eux.
Freddy: On sait bien que ce temps là, il y avait une guerre ethnique entre Hutu et Tutsi. Tu nous as dit que ton père voyageait souvent et que ta mère restait à la maison. Est-ce que ton père était menacé parcequ'il voyageait souvent ou seulement parce qu'il était Tutsi
Claude: Euh c'était ces choses là de Tutsi dont il était victime parce qu'il disait la vérité et parce qu'il avait épousé une femme issue d'une famille dite des Inyenzi, des choses comme ça. Mon père était quelqu'un qui de véridique, il avait beaucoup d'amis, de différentes origines, un peu partout, il était menacé pour ça à cause des calomnies ethniques, sectorielles… Même que le quartier que nous habitions était très dangereux, les gens l'appelaient camp Butaro. Tous les réfugiés de Ruhengeri venaient habiter dans cette zone.
Freddy: En bref, tu nous dit que ton père était menacé parce qu'il disait la vérité. Comment se comportait-il dans cette situation ? Peut-être se disait-il ‘ces gens me détestent...' Pourrais-tu nous expliquer en bref ?
Claude: Au fait ils le menaçaient parce qu'il ne prenait pas part en tout ce qui concernait la division basée sur l'ethnie ou la localité. En plus de cela, mon père n'avait peur de personne, il n'avait jamais peur de dire ce qu'il voulait. Il ne se sentait pas obligé d'être d'accord avec quelqu'un dans ses bêtises simplement parce que ce dernier lui était supérieur. Ils disaient alors : « Ce type est contre nous, pourquoi est-ce quand nous lui disons que nous voulons faire ceci, il est toujours contre ? » En plus de cela, quand il voyageait, à son retour, il nous emmenait des cassettes vidéo des Inkotanyi ou celles de Kayirebwa, des trucs comme ça les vexait. Ils en faisaient un problème.
Claude: Oui, il leur disait : « Non, Ça ne doit pas se passer comme ça ! »
Freddy: Après avoir su que l'avion de Habyarimana avait été abattu, comment avez-vous reçu la nouvelle chez vous ?
Claude: Je me rappelle bien que j'étais entrain d'étudier, ma mère lavait mon petit frère au salon, mon père prenait un verre avec ses amis dans sa buvette à côté. Nous avons ensuite entendu dire que le Président venait de mourir. Soudain l'expression au visage de mes parents a changé, nous n'étions que des enfants, ils ne pouvaient pas tout nous expliquer… Cependant, j'ai vu mes parents se refroidir d'un coup, au milieu de tous les gens qui étaient là.
Claude: Mes parents ont ensuite dit qu'il ne fallait plus qu'attendre et voir si le jour se lèverait en paix. Mon père avait ajouté : « C'est fini, il ne nous reste plus qu'à fuir, si jamais nous avons la chance de voir le jour demain, nous devrions partir. » Mais quand ils parlaient de fuir, ils parlaient de nous réfugier à l'ETO [Ecole Technique Officielle], à Kicukiro. C'était le seul endroit où on pouvait aller parce qu'aucun voisin ne pouvait te cacher en ce temps là. En plus la personne qui te tuait c'est celle qui te connaissait, il ne s'agissait pas de gens d'ailleurs.
Claude: Au fait ces Interahamwe étaient sous le contrôle d'un supérieur qui leur disait d'aller à tel ou tel endroit qu'il connaissait parfaitement. Il s'est donc avéré nécessaire de fuir, en fuyant le matin…Déjà la veille même, les gens avaient commencé à être tués, les balles ont retenti toute la nuit, juste à côté de chez nous des barrières ont été montées sur toutes les routes du quartier. Ils tuaient des gens.
Freddy: A partir du moment où ton père vous a dit de fuir, explique-nous ce qui s'est passé par la suite et si tu te souviens des dates, dis-les-nous ou que vous avez passé tel nombre de jours à tel endroit…jusqu'à ce qu'il meurt.
Claude: Je ne me souviens pas très bien mais nous…je me rappelle que ce matin là, il a mis son poste radio sur la fréquence Muhabura, il était vers 5 heures, il suivait les informations. Juste après, Evode qui était le parrain de mon petit frère et qui habitait à Kicukiro avait téléphoné à la maison, mon père disait : « nous sommes coincés, nous ne pouvons pas fuir alors qu'il est encore temps, nous ne pouvons pas non plus entreprendre d'aller au CND [conseil national de développement], il n'y a personne pour nous aider et même ceux qui le peuvent, ils sont encore loin »
Claude: Il y avait des appels à tout moment et même des appels internationaux, les gens demandaient : « Nous venons d'apprendre que Habyarimana a été assassiné, quelle est l'athmosphère, comment se présente la situation ? » Mon père leur répondait en ces mots : « Nous ne faisons qu'attendre, peut-être qu'il va se produire quelque chose… » c'est parce qu'on avait annoncé que personne ne devait sortir de chez lui mais les plus intelligents avaient pressenti ce qui allait arriver.
Claude: Il a continué à recevoir des coups de fil des gens qui lui demandaient comment se présentait la situation, il leur disait : « Je suis avec ma famille à la maison, je n'ai aucun moyen de sortir. Les gens sont entrain de se faire tuer devant ma maison…c'est grave ! »
Claude: Un ami à mon père, dont la femme était la sœur à ma mère [c'est-à-dire que leurs femmes étaient soeurs], était notre voisin et sa femme était enceinte de jumeaux. Cet homme vivait avec ses petits frères puis mon père lui a dit : «Dépose ta femme chez moi puis arrangez-vous pour fuir, celui qui survivra racontera l'histoire. » Il s'en est suivi que la dame est venue chez nous puis d'autres encore plus nombreux, plus ils se groupaient à la maison, plus les Interahamwe planifiaient leur attaque.
Claude: Mais entre temps, les Interahamwe avaient peur qu'en nous attaquant, ils pouvaient être défiés par mon père, il avait essayé mais ils étaient trop nombreux. Ils avaient d'abord tiré sur le portail mais il ne s'ouvrait pas, ils avaient insisté mais ils n'arrivaient pas à défoncer les portes. Ils se sont battus pendant deux jours à la maison puis un soir, ils se sont décidés à sauter par-dessus la clôture.
Claude: Ça faisait deux semaines que nous étions dans cette situation, les lignes téléphoniques passaient encore mais entre temps certains voisins avaient déjà fui, certaines maisons avaient déjà été brûlées, des gens tués…il n'y avait aucune échappatoire. C'est exactement deux semaines après qu'ils nous ont massacrés, c'était le…c'était un vendredi à 18 heures. Je ne me souviens pas très bien des dates mais je suis sûr que c'était après deux semaines.
Claude: Ce soir là, ils ont sauté par dessus la clôture, ils ont défoncé la porte par balle, ils sont entrés puis ont dit : « Vous croyiez donc que vous vous êtes enfermés ? Ouvrez cette porte ! » Mon père a dit : « C'est la même chose, si je n'ouvre pas, ils vont la défoncer et entrer de force. »
Claude: Il s'est décidé à sortir. Dehors il a essayé de se battre contre ceux qui étaient devant la porte et ils l'ont abattu. Il est tombé raide mort. Ils ont ensuite ordonné à tout le monde de sortir, c'étai une longue file, il y avait beaucoup de gens. Je ne saurait pas te dire la suite, j'ai juste entendu beaucoup de bruits puis…je voyais des gens avec des massues, c'était les plus nombreux ;les uns tiraient dans la foule puis les autres les achevaient avec des massues, d'autres avec des machettes…
Freddy: Tu ne nous as pas bien expliqué la file, d'où venait-elle ? Ces gens étaient-ils chez vous…
Claude: C'était la file de ceux qui s'étaient réfugiés à la maison. Ils étaient dans notre parcelle parce que mon père les avait appelés et leur avait dit : « Envoyez certains d'entre vous à la maison et fuyez séparément, il ne faut pas fuir en groupe parce qu'il se pourrait que vous soyez interceptés puis tués du même coup. Le mieux est d'envoyer les garçons ou les filles d'abord qui sont encore forts, cherchez un moyen de partir un à un, pas tous à la fois. »
Claude: Mais il savait bien que c'était impossible, ce qui lui faisait le plus de peine c'est ces femmes et ces enfants qui ne pouvaient pas courir et qui allaient être tués l'un après l'autre. Il se disait que lui, si jamais ils l'attrapaient, il pouvait courir et serait abattu par balle ou ils lui enverraient une flèche dans le dos mais il ne voulait pas devoir mourir avec toute sa famille.
Claude: Euh…ils nous ont fait sortir à la queue leu leu, nous étions nombreux, ils ont d'abord tué celui qui était devant eux, ils ont ensuite continué, moi ils m'ont tiré dessus en cinquième lieu.
Claude: En me fusillant, j'ai fait une manœuvre pour sortir, j'essayais de m'échapper parce qu'il y avait des pierres montées derrières lesquelles il y avait une petite porte de sortie qu'ils avaient défoncée en entrant. Je regardais la porte ouverte sans garde…c'est en essayant de me lever qu'il m'a tiré une balle dans le dos, je suis tombé sur le champ. Il est venu, il est passé au-dessus de moi, certainement qu'il me croyait mort…il a tué les autres qui étaient à côté de moi.
Claude: Mais après ils ont dit que cela n'était pas assez, il fallait dégourdir les grenades. Ils les ont lâchées…j'ai été touché par des fragments, j'en ai reçu deux et je les ai jusqu'à présent. Quand elles ont éclaté, les fragments ont pénétré mon corps mais je me suis dit que si je faisais geste de respirer, ils m'écouteraient…
Claude: Je suis resté là, allongé dans le bain de sang, ma chemise était mouillée de sang, le sang jaillissait des morts qui étaient couchés sur moi…je suis resté sans bouger, les Interahamwe venaient achever avec les gens en leur enfonçant des couteaux. Il y en a un qui est venu vers moi, il a voulu me tuer mais m'a loupé, il l'a enfoncé dans le gazon…mais je sentais bien que c'était moi la cible, il a levé son couteau pour la deuxième fois puis me l'a enfoncé entre les épaules, quand il a vu le sang couler, il s'est dit qu'il ne restait plus de survivant.
Claude": C'est alors qu'ils sont remontés, je les suivais de l'œil…ensuite j'ai levé la tête, j'ai bougé de tous les côtés mais tout le monde était mort. Je me suis levé, la seule chose dont je me souviens avoir fait c'est entrer dans la maison, prendre une couverture et me couvrir, il pleuvait…j'ai pris un pagne. Ce pagne appartenait à ma mère, je me suis couvert avec.
Claude: Mais entre temps j'étais comme devenu bête, je me demandais s'il fallait que j'entre dans la maison dormir…je n'avais aucune larme, aucun sentiment. Je me demandais seulement ce qui venait de m'arriver, je ne comprenais rien.
Claude: Au moment où je réfléchissais sur tout ça, ils ont sauté par-dessus la clôture et ils sont revenus. Puisque j'avais perdu ma chemise, en plus il y avait une rafale terrible…au fait à la maison il y avait eu une rafale extrême de façon que les voisins….Certains croyaient que les Inkotanyi y menaient une bataille, d'autres fuyaient déjà, ils ne s'en sont rendus compte que le lendemain matin lorsque les uns venaient pour piller et les autres pour se rendre compte de l'évidence. Moi c'est en ce moment que je me suis éclipsé. Après j'ai fui mais entre temps c'est de cette façon que se déroulait le Génocide, c'est ce que j'ai constat …
Freddy: As-tu une idée sur la mort de ta mère puisque tu viens de nous dire que ton père a été tué par balle ?
Claude: Ma mère aussi a été fusillée, elle était chrétienne [protestante], elle aimait beaucoup parler de Jésus. Mes frères eux, étaient rapprochés puisqu'ils étaient assis dans la file comme ceci. Après…j'ai entendu du bruit puis…il y avait aussi une tante, elle aurait peut-être pu s'en sortir, elle a respiré son dernier souffle dans mes bras, comme ça…
Claude: Comme je ne pouvais rien faire…je l'ai laissée là, je ne sais pas comment je me sentais mais je l'ai laissée et je suis parti. Franchement, quand je me suis levé, personne ne bougeait, ma mère était déjà morte, elle avait reçu trois balles : une ici, une là et une autre là. Mes petits frères eux avaient reçu des coups de massues, des balles dans la tête…un grand fleuve de sang coulait là…
Freddy: Quand tu es parti, tu n'as plus su ce que…
Claude: Je n'ai plus rien su jusqu'à ce que je sois revenu après la guerre. Juste après le Génocide, au temps de reconstruction du pays….Je suis retourné à la maison mais il y avait beaucoup de cadavres, j'ai demandé aux gens de m'aider, c'était des rescapés du quartier, ils m'ont aidé à les recouvrir de terre pour voir si…
Freddy: A ton retour as-tu pu reconnaître tes parents… ?
Claude: Je ne pouvais pas les reconnaître, à part le pantalon que portait mon père ou le pagne que portait ma mère, savoir que mes petits frères portaient tel short ou telle chemise…de telles choses.
Freddy: As-tu pu les inhumer en tout honneur ?
Claude: Non ! Tu vois ce temps la, les gens sortaient des problèmes, le pays venait à peine de commencer à se reconstruire, à tout recommencer. Au fait nous n'avons pas fait grand chose à part leur trouver de beaux vêtements et bien faire l'intérieur de la tombe c'est tout ! Nous les avons enterrés puis avons juste cimenté le dessus.
Freddy: Est-ce que tu peux nous dire quelle genre de vie tu as menée depuis ton départ de chez toi jusqu'à la prise du pays par les Inkotanyi?
Claude: J'ai beaucoup souffert durant le Génocide…
Freddy: Non, depuis le moment où tu es parti de chez toi.
Claude: Je suis parti de la maison mais il y avait toujours des gens qui me poursuivaient partout. Ils m'ont cherché par tous les moyens et même jusqu'à Gikondo. Ils sont ensuite allés à un endroit où des gens louaient nos maisons mais à leur grande surprise, je n'y étais jamais allé.
Claude: Mais après, les souffrances se sont arrêtées, j'ai rencontré les Inkotanyi, je leur ai expliqué tous les maux que j'avais vécu, je leur ai même dit là où j'ai survécu. Ils m'ont demandé mon état, je leur ai répondu que mon seul problème était ma blessure parce qu'elle avait pourri puisque je n'avais reçu aucun médicament. Ils ont essayé puis ils m'ont dit qu'il fallait que je reprenne la vie normale. Sauf que ma vie, elle n'est pas belle mais non plus elle n'est pas mauvaise parce que quand on arrive à dormir en paix…la vie continue.
Freddy: Juste après que les Inkotanyi t'aient dit de reprendre la vie normale. Qu'as-tu fais ? Avec qui as-tu vécu? Où trouvais-tu à manger ?
Claude: Quand ils m'ont dit de partir, je suis d'abord allé à Kicukiro, il y avait un membre de famille, un rescapé aussi mais je me rappelle que quand la guerre a éclaté, juste une semaine après, on nous avait appris qu'ils [lui et sa famille] n'étaient plus en vie, je me disais qu'il était sûrement mort.
Claude: Je suis ensuite allé à Remera, à l'IAMCA [un Institut Supérieur], il y avait un monsieur, ami de la famille qui vivait en Ouganda, il m'a emmené en Ouganda pour étudier, j'y ai fait quelques temps puis je suis revenu poursuivre mes études petit à petit. Seulement ce que j'ai ce pu constaté c'est que la vie…je rencontrais des amis de la famille, je ne sais pas s'ils avaient pitié de moi mais…la vie que j'ai traversée….ça allait un peu…
Claude: Jusqu'à ce que j'ai été habitué à la vie normale. Le Génocide a eu lieu certes mais…on se dit quand même qu'il faut lutter pour survivre. Il ne faut pas l'oublier mais la vie doit continuer.
Freddy: Tu as étudié…as-tu pu terminer ?
Claude: Je n'ai pas pu terminer mes études mais j'ai quand même un niveau qui peut me permettre de me débattre dans la vie…Je souhaite reprendre, seulement j'ai quelques petites choses à régler.
Freddy: Qu'est-ce qui rendait difficile tes études ?
Claude: J'avais des maux de tête aigus…quand je me concentrais, la tête me faisait affreusement mal. J'avais aussi un problème de bras, je ne pouvais pas faire…
Freddy: Tu nous as dit que tu as beaucoup souffert mais tu ne nous as pas dit comment.
Claude: Comment j'ai souffert ?
Freddy: A part tout ce que tu nous as dit, comment as-tu souffert Après avoir perdu tes parents, aujourd'hui, qu'est-ce qui te touche le plus ?
Claude: La première chose c'est le fait d'avoir perdu mes parents. C'était une vie a laquelle je n'étais pas habitué. Tu sais, quand on est encore petit… il arrive une période où l'on grandit, on atteint un niveau auquel on peut se débattre dans la vie…mais moi je devais faire face a une vie non habituelle.
Claude: Le fait de n'avoir personne pour me soutenir moralement, quelqu'un à qui dire que je veux ceci ou cela, c'était des choses difficiles pour moi. Le fait aussi d'avoir vu des gens mourir, sauter par-dessus des cadavres…en plus les gens que je croyais être mes sauveteurs se sont avérés être ceux qui voulaient me tuer…jusqu'à ce que je croise les Inkotanyi.
Freddy: ??

Identifier mike:	kmc00143/kmc00143_vid1
Title:	Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude
Description:	The oral testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony discusses early memories of childhood and family, the worst atrocities during the genocide, suffering and witnessing human rights abuses, surviving the genocide, and life after the genocide. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda, and English and French transcripts are available.
Media format:	mini-DV tape
Language:	kin

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Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude

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Continues with Part 2 of the Oral Testimony of NSHIMIYIMANA Claude.