Oral Testimony of UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde

  
  
  
  
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Id:kmc00033/kmc00033_vid1.
Title:Oral Testimony of UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde
Sequence:1 of 1
Abstract:The oral testimony of UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde, a survivor of the Genocide Against the Tutsi, recorded by the Kigali Memorial Centre in Kigali, Rwanda. The testimony is given in Kinyarwanda, with English transcript and subtitles available.
Contributors: Martin
Kigali Genocide Memorial, Kigali, Rwanda
Aegis Trust (UK)
Publisher:Kigali Genocide Memorial
Interview Date: 2007-02-16
Language:kin
Rights:Kigali Genocide Memorial, Kigali, Rwanda
Subject Headings: Genocide--Rwanda--History--20th century
Testimony--Rwanda
Tutsi (African people)--Crimes against--Rwanda
Rwanda--History--Civil War, 1994--Atrocities
Genocide-Rwanda--Survivor
Rwanda--Ethnic Relations--History--20th Century
Tutsi (African people)--Interviews
Creator: UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde, Kigali Genocide Memorial
Format: mini-DV tape
Dock windowView Translation
Martin: Today February 16, 2007, We are at Uwanyirigira Mathilde's house at Gacuriro. She is going to tell us her story about her life during and after the genocide. I would like you, Uwanyirigira Mathilde, to start with introducing yourself.
Mathilde: My name is Uwanyirigira Mathilde, I am 41 and I have two children. I think... before the war [genocide] I lived at Mumena, in Nyamirambo.
Martin: Mathilde, how many people were in your family before the war [genocide]?
Mathilde: My family was composed of my husband and my two children.
Martin: Can you tell us briefly how life was like in your family before the war [genocide] of 1994?
Mathilde: We lived well in our family. Coexistence with our neighbors was good.
Martin: So the genocide began... We would like you tell us briefly, and how you saw it.
Mathilde: We learnt about the death of Habyarimana on 6th [April 1994] at night. We tried to flee but we were told it was not possible at all because all roads and paths were blocked off. On 7th early morning, we were told that none was allowed to leave his home.
Mathilde: Around 11 am, one of our neighbors, a native of Ruhengeri came and told us: If you have somewhere to hide, you can go on now. You are at risk to be killed." I suggested my husband to flee and he said: "That is not worth it. It may be rumors. We might not be risking anything in staying here." I told him: " am scared, let me go away."
Mathilde: I took my children and went to St Andre parish. We left my husband at home. On the same 7th day, as our neighbor had said, our home was attacked but fortunately I and my children had already fled away. My husband glanced out through the window to see who was ringing at the gate. He saw soldiers surrounded by Interahamwe. He ran immediately behind the house and jumped over the fence, militiamen ran after him and shot him on his arm, he did not fortunately die. He fled away and came to join us at St Andre.
Mathilde: We were so many in the hideout that I couldn't see him, not even talk to him. We spent a night there. On the following day, militiamen came to kill everybody there. I managed to escape the massacres as I had gone home to look for something to drink for my husband and when I returned to the place, militiamen were already killing people. I ran around looking for my children and I found them alive. People were running here and there, everybody who tried to get out of the parish got killed. I ran away and hid in the bush round about.
Martin: I want you to be more specific about that attack of 8th [April 1994], you say it was on which day?
Mathilde: On the 8th [April 1994]
Martin: The militia was led by an Interahamwe called Kigingi who lived in Nyamirambo. How were they killing people? Try to tell us a bit more in detail.
Mathilde: The militia was led by an Interahamwe called Kigingi who lived in Nyamirambo. They were with soldiers. They came and ordered us to get out, we got out all. They ordered us to separate, Hutus on one side and Tutsis the other side. I told them: "I am a Hutu." They looked at me and said: "Is this really a Hutu?" I said: "My mother is a Tutsi but my father is a Hutu."
Mathilde: They let me free... Tutsis were put aside and everybody who appeared to be like a Tutsi was put aside as well and those who didn't look like Tutsis were put on their side. Whoever was put on the side of Tutsis was straightaway shot. Interahamwe came afterwards and hacked people with machetes and hit them with clubs. People on the Hutu side were left alive... from Mumena for example, people [Tutsis] mingled together with some scared Hutus. I went along with Hutus.
Martin: So you went on the side of Hutus. What happened after? Where did you go afterwards?
Mathilde: I had found my young child, the oldest had run away. I went looking for my young child... I mean the older. I looked for her in vain; I turned around and missed her. I was not really caring as I was seeing people lying down dead and my child missing... I felt it was no longer a matter to die but the fact of loving life led me to a gully that was round about. By chance I found my elder child hiding there too. She was only five, however she could hide well. I joined her and we stayed there for about five days along. After that, we went to the priests' convent of Karoli Rwanga parish.
Martin: So you went to Karoli Rwanga parish, that's where you could go, that's where you could get a hideaway. Since that time, did any other militia attacks come to run after you?
Mathilde: There were many attacks directed to us but the priests of Nyamirambo were so good people and protected us. There were children who had fled from Nyacyonga, they were grouped together aside and when militiamen came, the priests showed those children saying: "These are the only people we have, they are orphans from Nyacyonga." The priests always showed those children, they never delivered us. One day a huge militia attack came, it was probably on the 9th June.
Mathilde: We used to ask the priests to get our children away because we knew that at the end of the day we were going to die. The priests brought white men and told us that they were Red Cross agents but I finally knew they were journalists.
Mathilde: Thereafter, Interahamwe came to shoot people. Soldiers also came and saw that there were some old people. On 10th or 11th a huge attack came to exterminate all the people who were there.
Martin: Still talking about that, I want you tell us more details about that attack, how was exactly the situation. Because you see, someone who was not there can hardly understand what was really happening. As one who witnessed the facts, we want you to explain clearly. How the attacking troop came? How did they kill people? How many people were in the hideaway? How many survived? Stuff like that.
Mathilde: I cannot just give the exact number of people who were there, however I can guess they were about two hundred or a hundred and tens. A while before, on 9th, came a troop of soldiers, I happened to recognize one called MUNYAKAZI. He came and searched for us in different rooms we were hidden in. We talked to him praying to save our children, we knew it was not possible to save us all but at least our children. He said: "On va voir." Which means: "we will see." he replied in French.
Martin: The Munyakazi we know?
Mathilde: The famous General of the army. On 10th, they came saying there were to save us. They had a car and told the priest: "Open the door, we just came to save women." Men were always hidden in the ceiling, they had never been seen
Mathilde: The priest refused to open the door. The soldiers were angry and threw teargas grenades to us, young children died immediately. They told us not to be scared, that we were going to be safe. We rushed into the car but looking at how we were piled up like stones, though we were frightened, it seemed somehow doubtful about our fate. How could they save people crammed so?
Mathilde: We were packed into the car and many were left down, I was in the car too. I immediately noticed that my elder daughter was not in. I pleaded to the soldiers: Please, I beg you, let me go and bring my child. They refused first but at the end they let me go. My young child was still a baby, I was keeping her on my back. I got off the car and went looking for my child. I found her and when I came back to the car people were being hit with gun butts and sticks, they were also shot.
Mathilde: Then I said to myself: "These soldiers are not saving us, they want to kill us." I stayed there staring at how people were being piled up. The car left... They did not go far, they were all killed at Rafiki. You know that it is a few minutes from St Andre to Rafiki. The car came back and packed in other people.
Mathilde: There was a young girl with us; she went and told an Interahamwe, I assume they knew each other. She told him: "I am a Hutu." The militiaman replied: "If you are a Hutu, what are you doing here? Go there aside." I also did the same and said: "I am a Hutu too." He said: "Go there too." I went aside but after a while I wanted to leave.
Mathilde: I first of all went to the car of Munyakazi, he was back. I told his driver: "Can you take me to Saint Paul?" He did not tell me anything. Munyakazi came, his car was a double-cabin. He asked me: "Where are you going?" I said: "I want you take me to Saint Paul." He opened the door and said: "get out."
Mathilde: I got out the car and stood where I was before. I looked at what was happening and I returned back in the house. I went to the ladies toilet and I remained at the entrance. All the remaining people were brought away and killed. I don't think ten of them survived.
Martin: You mean from 200 people, you do not estimate even ten survivors?
Mathilde: Not ten people survived.
Martin: So everything was over or the survivors remained there?
Mathilde: No, we did not remain there. We scattered here and there, each one looking for a hideaway. I went back to the gully I was in before. The priests we were together came and joined me in the gully, they were maybe looking for hideaway too.Half an hour after, one of them said: "Let me go and find soldiers at St Andre to help us get out of here."
Mathilde: He climbed out of the gully and fell into gunfire from Rebero targeting Nyamirambo. The other priest got out of the gully to rescue his co-priest, they left us alone there. I was alone with my children, there was a young girl in the bush nearby there. She saw me and came to join us. She told me: "I saw you, we were together." Her mother had been killed and her five siblings likewise.
Mathilde: She told me: "I saw you and believed you are my mother." I told her: "Come with us, henceforth I am your mother." We stayed in the gully for two days and on the third day, maybe because of hunger and mosquito bites, my children started crying. Soldiers from St Andre came and took us out of the gully. I wished they would kill us, I had gone off living.
Mathilde: The man who took us out of the gully was very kind to us, he took us to St Andre and we spent our night there. He came back to see us in the morning and asked: "Where do you want to go?" I feared to say Mumena because it was said that Inkotanyi were there. I said: "I want to go to Nyakabanda." He asked then: "At who's house?" I did not know anyone from Nyakabanda and I said: "Listen, I knew someone living at Mumena, if you can come with me there, I may find him."
Mathilde: He called on an Interahamwe to help me and the one who came was someone I knew. Militiamen were people we knew, there were people we used to send to market for us, there were porters. He saw me and came to greet me, he said: "Are you still alive?" I answered: "Yes I am." Seeing a porter holding a gun!! He might not even know how to use it. He saw me off back to Mumena.
Mathilde: I arrived to Mumena and noticed that the slaughter was not as high as elsewhere but I was still scared however I had no choice, I had to go for death or life. I told the Interahamwe: "My husband told me that you and him were friends, I came to you as a friend of my husband. You can save me, if you also want to kill me, go ahead, there is no problem."
Mathilde: I had a cheque book on me and I told him: "I have some money on my account, I can sign you a cheque and when the crisis is over you can go and get the money at the bank, you can even go there right now." I signed three million on the cheque but I knew there was no such amount on my account. I was just tricking him to save my life. He brought me in a house where he had already hidden two young girls. We spent two days there and Inkotanyi troops took control of the region. It was the time of conquering Kigali.
Martin: So if I come a little back in your testimony, you have been talking about your husband when he was shot and escaped the killers. Can you now try to tell us how he died? Where was he when he died?
Mathilde: I never knew about his death, I saw him for the last time then.
Martin: You never knew?
Mathilde: No.
Martin: I would like to ask you a tough question, I am very sorry for that; What is the most important Personality of your husband you will never forget?
Mathilde: It is not very easy to talk about that... however I know that he was a very calm man and kind to even strangers. He was sociable to everyone. Even those who were hunting him lived in the same neighborhood with us; he used to help them getting to the hospital when they were sick.
Martin: I beg your excuses again; I would like you tell us briefly; we have been talking about your father's family. You said there were all exterminated, have you ever learnt about how they died and maybe who killed them?
Mathilde: I never knew about that.
Martin: Haven't you even known where they might have died?
Mathilde: I just know that they died at Kibuye because they lived there, but I know nothing about how they died, where they were thrown, nothing. This is not an easy issue, I am very sorry.
Martin: You have talked about a young girl who joined you in the gully where you were hiding, the one whose mother and siblings were all killed. Can you remember her name?
Mathilde: Her name is Uwanyirigira.
Martin: She is also called Uwanyirigira. What happened after, did you continue being with her along?
Mathilde: We walked together during the war [genocide] and when it was over, we stayed together. A good while after, she found her father who took her with him. However, she is a child in my family as my own children. Very often, she is with us when on holidays. She is grown up, she must be in senior 5.
Martin: You lived at Mumena, it is close to St Andre. We can say that most of the people who hide in St Andre were from round about. I think there may also be some from the neighborhood who came to kill people apart from soldiers themselves. Haven't you recognized some of your neighbours from Mumena in the killing troops at St Andre and around?
Mathilde: I only happened to recognize an Interahamwe called Kigingi. He is the one I knew living at Mumena. However I learnt that some people who stayed in quarter may have been indicated by their neighbors to be killed. There were many intellectuals, they just indicated who to kill here and there. We publicly knew very few but of course there are.
Martin: I may probably have forgotten to ask you something about what happened where you were hidden. May you have anything I did not ask about in what concerns the killings of St Andre's parish Karoli Rwanga? You probably have some clarifications to make about that before we continue.
Mathilde: Do you think it is easy to talk about those killings? The slaughter was too grave and unimaginable. I sometimes think about what I saw and I say: "It must be a nightmare, I cannot have seen such atrocities with my own eyes." I told you I stayed in the gully for about five days; however I saw too bad thinks during that while. I do not know how to say it.
Martin: I want you make an effort to tell more in detail what atrocities you really witnessed, if you don't mind. I mean that you would better tell us exactly how were people killed, were they shot, clubbed or whatever. I want you describe the slaughter of that time. Can you try?
Mathilde: I remember a man, he was a teacher, he was a professor of high school at St Andre, and his name was Bonaparte. Interahamwe hurled stones at him. He was very tall and sturdy but seeing little devils who stoned him to death, beating him with sticks and bludgeoning him and I cannot find words to mean it.
Mathilde: There is another scene I won't ever forget, it is of a young boy, he was about thirteen. Some men came and started kicking him. I was in a gully and a bush was over me. They kicked him to death, they left him there breathless some seconds before his death.
Mathilde: He had seen me in my hideaway, he was looking at me and he desperately crawled towards me. He made signs revealing that he was in need of water, he was thirsty. I could not do anything for him, I kept on hiding my eyes for not to continue seeing him. There happened regrettable killings in that area, it is unimaginable.
Martin: During those times of sorrow, people endured many unfortunate matters and they were hopeless. There are even some who came to deny the existence of God. Considering sorrows you lived, do you still believe in God?
Mathilde: I strongly believe in God, he did great things to me. He saved me and proved me his existence. See for example On 7th, I hid under a car and I had lost my child. The car was Tasiyana's, she had been shot, his grandchild on her back, under my eyes. I hid under her car, it was a Suzuki, and I was seeing all the people dying.
Mathilde: They stopped killing people when it rained a lot. I was forced to go and hide in the gully because of that rain. I could not imagine what protected me against getting caught, it is probably God who protected me. Something else that made me believe in God is that my lost child was only 5 and I found her in the gully, it is God who led me there. We were hunted by dogs and they often found us and smelled us but they did not bark at all. I believe in God and I believe that it is him who saved me.
Martin: What you say is really true, it truly happened as you say and some of the agitators are still free. You probably meet some of them and others are in jail. So, you as a genocide survivor, do you think those people who did genocide can be excused?
Mathilde: It is a very tough problem. Forgiving those people is not an easy matter and it does not even seem very worth it. On my side, I would like those people get punished, they deserve to be severely punished. It is difficult to see a killer saying his mea culpa that he killed five or ten people and he gets freed.
Mathilde: None of them can come and tell you: "I killed your mother, I killed your brother, I killed your child and I beg your pardon". I am afraid my excuses are far to be granted, I am really afraid. I don't know how to say it. To grant them pardon is not easy at all, we cannot do them any harm but to pardon someone who does not really apologize is hard.
Martin: Of course, the genocide set many people lamentably miserable and took away many other families. As you said, God helped some to survive and life is still going on though hardly. I now want you to tell us about your life after genocide.
Mathilde: I thank God for everything he did for me after genocide. I did not have any serious problem. I survived of course and I tried to rehabilitate my house, it had been a bit demolished. I came to take care of my two daughters. The elder is now in university. I also happened to adopt some four children whom I now bring up in my family.
Mathilde: However, apart from me, life is very hard for many of genocide survivors. I sometimes look at widows living with about five children added to other family orphans. Life is hard though there is a fund to support them but sometimes for example; children who go to school are obliged to get some level of success to get FARG's schooling support. In some cases they are not helped.
Mathilde: When you are in such conditions, you wonder how you will live with all those children without what to feed them. Life after genocide is not easy at all. Maybe 20% of the survivors live decently but the left 80% live in destitution. Many of them do not have houses where to live, others do not even have what to put on and others are wandering in the streets. Generally, life of after genocide is very difficult.
Martin: In general, as a 1994 genocide survivor, what may be your message to other genocide survivors?
Mathilde: The main message I can send to genocide survivors is to walk straight. Life still goes on, we were killed but we did not die. We lost a lot of ourselves. It is not easy for other people to understand our pain, survivors shouldn't give up and let life go on. They have to stand strong, widows have to know their responsibility to bring up their children, to take care of them [and make sure they get educated. They have then to take care of their own lives]
Mathilde: That is the message I can give them. It is not easy at all for genocide survivors to live with people who killed our families. There are still hatching plots to take our lives. I just call upon survivors to be strong and war [genocide]n authorities in case of insecurity. The chance we have is that our authorities handle and understand our problems, so we have to live, this cannot be the end of our lives.
Martin: There is one question I would like to come back on. You saw that people were horribly killed and thrown everywhere, it is something that never happened before in our culture. When someone died of sickness or other matter, he had to be honorably buried. I want to come up asking you whether you buried your husband or not.
Mathilde: I did not bury my husband. I never knew how he died, where he was killed, nothing. I last saw him at St Andre, people were running here and there. If he died there or somewhere else, I do not know. I could not have buried him. I did not even know how he died.
Martin: We can assume that he may have been buried around in the country with lots of others who died everywhere.
Mathilde: I also hope so.
Martin: I think we can also say that one day the killers of your husband may be caught and reveal where he was thrown so that he can be honorably buried. We always see people who find bodies of their dead family members and bury them. I would like to ask you; you know that when bodies of our people get found, they are buried in different memorial sites in the country. Especially as a genocide survivor, how would you like we keep memory of them?
Mathilde: On my side, I always remember them, we do not have to forget them at all. We have had chance to survive and we have to try our best to make sure that each and every genocide victim gets buried in honor. That is what I really wish.
Mathilde: If we could only have chance that killers reveal where they put people they killed so that they get buried. For the rest, I do not think anyone should forget them, it is something we have always to make sure it is not forgotten. I think everybody think about them every day. Myself, I never spend a day without thinking about them. We should remember them day and night, it may help us stop from genocide to happen again.
Martin: Approaching the end, when you think about your descendants, I mean grandchildren and great grandchildren. Normally children born and when they do not see their grandparents they ask why; what means that they will experience some genocide consequences. Generally in our culture children born and see their grandfather or grandmother but because of genocide children will miss them. I want you now give an advice to the youth, I mean, what you may like to hand on your descendants, though you experienced hard life, you may certainly have a wish to the youth of tomorrow.
Mathilde: My very first thing I wish to the youth of tomorrow is not to live what we lived. I would not nevertheless wish they ignore our history. Of course I cannot hide them the truth as, for example, my older daughter knew her father, she had started calling: Dad... Not to tell the truth to a child who never said such a word is not good at all. By my own means I will tell them what happened.
Mathilde: I may insist on calling them to fight for that such a misfortune do not happen again. We cannot afford hiding them the truth of our history. Our children have to know why they did not see their grandfathers, grandmothers and fathers. There are even some who did not know any of their parents. I think it cannot be a good think not to teach them our history. We can tell them to make their future better and live in solidarity and unity, however they have to know whatever happened.
Martin: Thank you.
Mathilde: Thank you too.
Dock windowUbuhamya Bwanditse
Martin: Ehh uyu munsi ni tariki ya 16 z’ukwezi kwa kabiri ibihumbi bibiri na karindwi, aha turi ni kwa UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde Gacuriro tugiye kuganira nawe aho agiye kutubwira ubuhamya bwe mu gihe cy’intambara ndetse na nyuma y’intambara. Ngirango ubwo UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde mwatangira mutwibwira?
Mathilde: Nitwa UWANYIRIGIRA Mathilde, uhh mfite imyaka 41 nkaba mfite abana 2, ndumva uhh mbere y’intambara nari ntuye ku mumena, I Nyamirambo. Uhh
Martin: Mathilde mbere y’intambara umulyango wawe wari ugizwe n’abantu bangahe?
Mathilde: Umulyango wanjye bwite nari; wari ugizwe n’umugabo wanjye n’abana banjye 2.
Martin: Uhh mwagerageza kutunyuriramo muri make eh mbere y’intambara ya Genocide yabayeho muw’1994, uko mwari mubayeho mu mulyango wanyu?
Mathilde: Umulyango wacu twari tubanye neza; ndetse n’abaturanyi tuba, tubana neza nta kibazo twari dufite, huu.
Martin: Nuko rero Genocide iratangiye; twagirango noneho mutunyuriremo muri makeya,,,eh nari ngeze aho navuganga nti n’uko rero genocide iratangiye yabaye muw’1994, ngirango yabaye abantu benshi batayiteguye namwe mushobora kuba muri bamwe mutari muzi wenda ko yateguwe ariko mwagiye kubona mubona irabaye. Nagirango rero mutunyuriremo mu magambo makeya uburyo Genocide yaba yarabagezeho cyangwa se uko mwayibonye.
Mathilde: Uh, Genocide, twamenye ko HABYARIMANA yapfuye ku itariki ya 6, tubyumva n’ijoro dushaka no guhunga ariko batubwira ko ahantu hose amayira bayafunze, hanyuma ku itariki ya 7, bazindutse bavugo ko nta muntu uribusohoke iwe. Ariko bogie nko mu ma saa tanu, hari umuturanyi twari duturanye ehh ngirango iwabo hari mu Ruhengeri niho hari kavukire kiwe.
Mathilde: Yaraje aratubwira ati “ niba mufite ahantu ho kujya ati ni muhunge kubera ko ati barabica. Nabwiye Umugabo ngo nti ni duhunge, umugabo arambwira ati oya ati nta ati nta ati ntago ati si sicyo ki ati siwo muti ati ashobora kuba ya impumeko y’abaturage ariko wenda ntacyo turi bube.Njye naramubwiye nti njye mfite ubwoba, nti reka mbe nijyendeye.
Mathilde: Mfata abana turazamuka tujya kuri Paruwase ya Saint Andre. Umugabo tumusiga mu rugo. Hanyuma kuri wa munsi ku itariki ya 7 nk’uko umuturanyi yabitubwiraga koko baraduteye ariko twagize amahirwe kuko twe ntitwari duhari njye n’abana, umugabo afunguye arebye ngo haje abantu barasona arebeye mu idirishya asanga n’ abasirikare bakikijwe n’Interahamwe noneho anyura inyuma asimbuka cloture ariko baramurasa ariko ntiyapfa bamurasa akaboko, ariko abasha kubacika adusanga aho twari turi muri Saint André.
Mathilde: Aho twari twari abantu benshi ntabwo nanjye nasho sinashoboye kumubona no kuvugana nawe hanyuma uhh turara aho.ku itariki ya 8 rero nibwo baje kwica muri rusange abantu bose bari ahongaho.hanyuma na none njye sinashobora ndasho ndarokoka kubeko nari nagiye mu rugo ngiye kumushakira ikintu cyo kunywa, ngarutse nsanga batangiye kwica njya gushaka abana aho bari bari ndababona ariko abandi Bantu bose bari batangiye gukwira imishwaro isohotse bamwica usohotse bamwica, usohotse bamwica. Mbasha kurokoka njyewe njya mba mu bihuru byo hafi aho ngaho.
Martin: Eh ariko ahongaho ndagira ngo unsobanurire icyo gitero cyabaye ku itariki 8,guhera kuri,, wari uvuze ngo ni kuri,,,
Mathilde: Ku itariki ya 8.
Martin: Nagirango muse n’abadusobanurira ese abateye ni bande? Bicaga abantu buryo ki ? muse nk’abanyuriramo mudusobanurire.
Mathilde: Abateye bari bari bayobowe n’Interahamwe yitwaga KIGINGI yaho i Nyamirambo. Ariko bari kumwe n’abasirikare, baraza baravuga ngo nidusohoke,turasohoka ariko bakajyenda bavangura abantu bavuga ngo ABAHUTU nibajye aha ABATUTSI nibajye ahangaha. Eh njye rero nsohotse icyo gihe ngarutse nanjye nagiye mu mwanya w’ABA ABAHUTU, nanjye ndabambwira nti nanjye ndi UMUHUTU. Ariko bandeba bati iki iki kintu n’IGIHUTU. Ndababwira nti Mama n’UMUTUTSIKAZI nti ariko Data n’UMUHUTU.
Mathilde: Nibwo bandetse. ABATUTSI babanyuzaga uwo uwo byagaraga cyane ko ari UMUTUTSI bamunyuzaga mu ruhande rwe uwo bitagaragaraga ko ari UMUTUTSI bakanyuza mu ruhande batarimo kwica unyuze mu ruhande rw’ABATUTSI bamurasiraga ahongaho INTERAHAMWE zikaza zigatema cyangwa zigakubita impiri, unyuze muri urwo ruhande rundi ba bashakaga nko ku Mumena bari bahunze bose bavanze abenshi naba nab’ABAHUTU bamwe bafite ubwoba bari bahunze. Njye rero nanyuze muri urwo ruhande rwari rwanyuragamo ABAHUTU.
Martin: N’uko rero unyura muri urwo ruhande hanyuma murakomeza mukatubwira bijyenda bite mujya he?
Mathilde: Ubwo nari nabonye umwana mutoya umukuru yari ya yirukanse n’abandi, nsubira gushakisha umwana mutoya, umwana mukuru plutot ndamushaka ndamubura ndongera ndasohoka numvaga nta n’ikintu bimbwiye mbona abantu bose bapfuye mbuze n’umwana wanjye puu nkumva nanjye n’uwanyica ntacyo bimbwiye ariko kubera gukunda ubuzima, ndagenda njya ahantu muri ruhurura yari hafi ahongaho ngira n’amahirwe nsangamo uwo mwana wanjye mukuru niho yari ari yari afite 5 ans ariko yari azi yari azi kwihisha. Ndajyenda musangamo tubamo ahongaho tuhamara ngirango twahamazemo nk’iminsi 5. hanyuma tuza kujya rero munzu z’aba PADIRI, paruwasi ya Kalori Rwanga.
Martin: Uh hanyuma icyo gihe mwagiye muri Paroise ya Karoli Rwanga, niho mwabashije kujya niho mwabashije guhungira. Ese kuva icyo gihe nta kindi gitero kigeze kongera kuza kongera kubatera?
Mathilde: Haje ibitero byinshi byinshi byinshi byinshi cyanee ariko Abapadiri b’ I Nyamirambo batubereye abantu beza icyo gihe hari abana bavuye Nyaconga bari ahantu hamwe bakajya berekana abo bana ba baza kudushaka bakavuga bati abantu dufite n’abana b’imfubyi zavuye Nyaconga akaba aribo berekana twebwe ntibatwerekane, ariko iki haje kuza Igitero gikomeye ngirango ni ku itariki ya 9 z’ukwa gatandatu.
Mathilde: wajyaga duhora twinginga aban abapadiri kugirango bagerageze ko badukurira abana ahongaho ko twe twabonaga ko nta kundi byagenda ko byanze bikunze tugombaga gupfa, abapadiri icyo gihe bazana abazungu bakatumbwira ngo ni abo muri croix rouge.ariko nyuma naje kumenya ko ngo ari aba Journalistes.
Mathilde: Hanyuma baje Interahamwe zirabarasa euh icyo gihe haza Abasirikare, n’ibwo batangiye kubona y’uko aho hantu harimo abantu bakuru. Euh noneho rero ku itariki ya 10 cyangwa ya 11 nibwo baje ku haje igitero simusiga cyo kumaraho abantu bose bari ahongaho.uhh
Martin: Ariko rero hagati aho ndagirango unsobanurire neza uburyo wabonye icyo gitero donc uko ibintu byagendaga urabona uvuze uti haje igitero simusiga ntabwo umuntu ya yapfa kubyumva nk’umuntu utari uhari. Twe rero twagirango mutunyuriremo nk’umuntu wari uhari, icyo gitero uburyo cyaje, uko kishe abantu, ese cyasanze ari abantu bangana iki? Abarokotse bo bangana iki? Ibintu nk’ibyo…..
Mathilde: Ntabwo navuga ngo hari abantu bangana gutya kuko imibare sinyibuka. Ariko ngereranyije bari abantu bagera nko kuri Maganabiri, ijana na mirongo. Ubwo mbere ku itariki ya cyenda abasirikare baje, umusirikare nabashije kumenyamo mukuru n’umusirikare witwa MUNYAKAZI .niwe waje akajya adusohora twari mu twumba twinshi adusohora areba abantu bose barimo; turanaganira , turamubwira tuti mwaduhungishirije abana ko twe wenda bidashoboka ariko nibura ni mudutwarire aba abana. Aratubwira ati tuza ati On va voir. Niko yadusubije mw’iryo jambo ry’igifaransa
Martin: Munyakazi uyu nguyuu !!!
Mathilde: Uyunguyu wari umu Géneral. Hanyuma rero ku itariki ya 10 nibwo baje baravuga ngo baje kuduhungisha muri rusange. Bazana imodoka batera ahongaho baraza bati babwira padiri bati fungura tuje guhungisha abo babyeyi bari ahongaho. Ko abagabo bo babaga bari muri Plafond, ntabwo ntabwo bigeze bagaragara na rimwe.
Mathilde: Padiri ati yanga gufungura yanze gufungura yanze gufungura baturasa bya byuka bihumanya kuburyo abana batoya bo bahise banapfa ako kanya ariko baratubwira ngo ntitugire ubwoba ngo baraduhungishije,ibiki n’ibiki mbese turwanira twese gusohoka twirunda muri iyo modoka bari bafite ariko wareba uburyo bari bapakiye iyo modoka, n’ubwo wenda twari dufite ubwoba, wasubiza ubwenge ku gihe ukavuga uti aba bantu bapakiye abantu nk’amabuye ? bashobora guhungisha abantu gute aba bantu bapakiye gutya ?
Mathilde: Ariko twaragiye twitsindagira muri iyo modoka,igipande hasigara benshi cyanee nanjye nari nagiye mo muri iyo modoka. Noneho ngezemo buri gihe nageragamo ngasanga umukobwa wanjye mukuru atarimo, ngezemo nsanga atarimo, ndabinginga mbasaba imbabazi,ndababwira rwose mumbabarire njyekuzana umwana wanjye barabanza baranyangira ariko bagezaho barankundira ngo ninjyende muzane. Umuto yari akiri muto nabaga muhetse. Ndamanuka njya kureba umwana, ndamubona , ngarutse nsanga batangiye kubakubita ibibuno by’imbunda nsanga batangiye kurasa kubakubita ibikoni iki?
Mathilde: Hee noneho ndavuga nti aba Bantu ntabwo baduhungisha ahubwo bagiye kutwica. Ariko ndakomeza mpagarara ahongaho ndeba ndeba uko bimeze barakomeza barabagerekeranya. Noneho rero imodoka ibwo iba iragiye ngo ntibabajyanye kure ngo babiciye baragiye babasuka kuri Rafiki urabona kuva kuri saint andre kugera kuri Rafiki n’iminota mike cyane. Barongera baragaruka baragaruka bapakiramo abandi,
Mathilde: Noneho harimo umwana umwe w’umukobwa wagiye abwira interahamwe imwe ngirango wenda yari imuzi cyangwa yari ayizi, aragenda arayibwira ati ariko ati ko njyewe ndi UMUHUTU. Aramubwira ati niba uri UMUHUTU ngo njya hariya ngo ubundi se mwaje hano gukora iki? Noneho nanjye ndagenda ndamwengera ndamubwira nti ariko nti nanjye ndi UMUHUTU. Ngo nawe njya hariya. Ndajyenda nanjye njya iruhande ariko ndabireba ndongera nsubira inyuma gatoya.
Mathilde: Ariko narabanje njya mu modoka ya wa musirikare na none yari yagarutse uwo witwa MUNYAKAZI ndagenda njyamo mbwira umushoferi we nti ndagirango mujyeze kuri Saint Paul, aranyihorera noneho MUNYAKAZI araza arafungura yari ari mu modoka ya double cabine arambwira ngo wowe urajyahe? Nti ndagirango mujyeze kuri Saint Paul. Afungura umulyango ngo sohoka.
Mathilde: Ndasohoka ndagenda ndongera mpagarara aho nari mpagaze, ndeba ibintu uko bimeze sinzi ukuntu nongeye nsubira mu nzu ndagenda njya mu mu mulya muri toilette, njya mu rugi mfungura umulyango barongera batyara abo bantu bose barabajyenda baso barabica ngirango hasigayemo abantu batajyeze no ku bantu ntabwo bageze kubantu 10.
Martin: Nukuvuga ngo muri ba bantu 200. wari wagereranyije icumi ntabwo ryigeze rigera kubasigaye?
Mathilde: Ntabwo ryagezeho.
Martin: Ubwo byabaye birangiye cyangwa ubwo icyo gihe abantu bakomeje kuhaba abo bari basigaye barakomeje barahaba?
Mathilde: Oya, bako ba baragiye icyo gihe twaranyanyagira bose bagiye kwihisha bamwe abandi bajya hehe ariko njyewe nasubiye nasubiye hahandi muri ya ruhurura nagiyemo mbere, noneho haza kuza n’aba padirio abo ba padiri twari kumwe baraza barahansanga nabo baje ahari kwihisha, tugumanamo noneho hashije nk’iminota mirongo itatu, umwe aravuga ati reka njye kureba abasirikare muri Saint Andre ati turebe ko twava aha hantu.
Mathilde: Baragenda umu padiri akizamukamo baba baramurashe akubitana n’udusasu twavaga kw’irebero tuza hano I Nyamirambo. Bamurashe undi avamo aragenda yitwarira mugenzi wabo,badusigamo ahongaho, ubwo bansigamo ahongaho n’abana banjye babari hari n’undi mwana umwe w’umukobwa yari aho hafi mu gihuru ambonye araza aransanga arambwira ati ndakubonye twari turi kumwe n’ubundi ariko mama we bari bamwishe n’abana n’ abo bava inda imwe ba tanu.
Mathilde: Araza arambwira ati uziko nkubonye ati nkagira ngo uri Mama nti n’ubundi iyizire n’ubu nanjye ndi nyoko. Tugumana ahongaho muri iyo ruhurura tumaramo iminsi ibiri kuwa gatatu ngirango ahari abana bari bamaze gusonza n’imibu n’iki, bararira. Baraza badukuramo. Abasirikare bari muri Saint Andre.baraza badukuramo ariko njye numvaga ko ntacyo bimbwiye kuko navugaga nti uwampa Imana ngo batwice,numvanga maze guheba ubuzima.
Mathilde: Ariko umuntu wadukuyemo yatubereye imfura, atu atusubiza aho kuri Saint Andre turara ahongaho mu gitondo araguka ati murashaka kujya he? Nkatinya kuvuga nti ku Mumena kubera ko bavugaga ko ku Mumena ngu ngo ariho INKOTANYI ziba. Ndavunga nti ngo nshaka kujya mu Nyakabanda. Ati kwa nde? Nkayoberwa umuntu mpazi, ngezaho ndavuga nti umva ku Mumena hari umuntu nari mpazi nti ushoboye kumperekeza ukahangeza najya kureba y’uko agihari akaba ariho njya.
Mathilde: Ahamagara umuntu w’Interahamwe nsanga iyo nterahamwe n’umuntu nari nzi kubera zose wabaga uzizi bari abakarani abantu watumaga mw’isoko. Nsanga ni umuntu nari nsanzwe nzi, ambonye araza arandamutsa, ati uracyariho nti ndiho, afite imbunda umuntu w’umukarani utabona y’uko yashobora no kurasa ngirango ntanibyo yari azi. Aramperekeza ansubiza ku Mumena.
Mathilde: Ngeze ku Mumena njya ku muntu wicaga cyane abantu kuko navugaga ngo nawe nimpagera baranyica nti reka njye kuri uriya nanyica anyice nankiza ankize. Ndagenda ndamubwira nti njyewe nti umugabo wanjye yajyaga ambwira ko ari inshuti yawe nti rwose nti nje ngusanga nk’umuntu wari inshuti y’umugabo wanjye n’ushobora kunkiza unkize n’ushobora kunyica nabwo unyice nta kibazo.
Mathilde: Nari mfite Chequier na na nahunganye ndamubwira nti kandi mfite na na amafaranga kuri compte nti nagukorera chéque nti intambara yazarangira nti wazaa njyenda ukayafata cyangwa n’ubu wajyenda ukayafata nti kuri compte ariho nta kibazo. Musinyira chéque ya millioni eshatu kandi ntazari ziriho, naramubeshyaga kwari ukugira ngo ndebe ko yankiza gusa n’uko uwo mugabo anjyana ahantu mu nzu, nsanga yashyizemo abandi bana babakobwa babiri. Tuba aho ngaho tuhamarana iminsi ibiri, inkotanyi zirahafata , urumva hari, hari igihe kigiye barimo barafata Kigali.
Martin: Uhuu!! N’uko, wenda ngarutse inyuma gatoya wigeze kutubwira ko umugabo wawe bari bamurashe ariko abasha kubacika ndagira ngo utubwire ese yaje gupfa gute? Yaje gupfira he?
Mathilde: Ntabwo nabashije kumenya urupfu rwe duherukana icyo gihe.
Martin: Ntabwo wigeze umenyaaa?
Mathilde: Uhuuuu
Martin: Uhuu ngirango nagira ngo wenda nkubaze ikintu kikibazo gikomeye ariko uraza kwihangana. Ni ikihe kintu cy’umwihariko wibuka ku mugabo wawe udashobora kwibagirwa ?
Mathilde: Huuhuu,,ntabwo byoroshye kubivuga ibyo,uhuhuuu icyo nzicyo n’uko yari umuntu utuje ku bantu bamuzi kandi ubana n’abantu bose. Uhh. No muri quartier abo bantu bose bamuhigaga niwe wabatwaraga kwa muganga niwe atuu..huu.
Martin: N’uko. Noneho wihangane gato nagirango muse noneho nabatunyuriramo noneho, ese ngirango twigeze kuba tuganira mubwira ko mu mulyango wi wanyu aho muvuka kwa Papa abantu bose barashize mwaba mwarigeze mumenya imipfire yabo cyangwa se n’abantu babishe?
Mathilde: Nabo ntabwo nabashije kuyimenya.
Martin: Kugeza uyu munsi ntabwo uzi n’ahantu baba baraguye?
Mathilde: Nziko baguye ku Kibuye kuko niho babaga ariko ntabwo nabashije kumenya bapfuye buryo ki? Babashyi babajugunye he? Ntabwo nashoboye kubimenya. Ntabwo byoroshye ibi bintu mumbabarire.
Martin: Hari umwana wigeze utubwira wabasanze ahantu mu muferege, u umwana wari ufite abavandimwe be bose na nyina bapfuye waba mwaba mwibuka izina n’inde ? ese mwatubwira…
Mathilde: Nawe yitwa UWANYIRIGIRA.
Martin: Nawe yitwaga UWANYIRIGIRA. Uh nyuma byaje kujyenda bite ubu abahe?mwakomeje kugendana cyangwa?
Mathilde: Eh twakomeje kujyendana intambara irangira turi kumwe turanagumana, hanyuma hashize igihe gitoya eh yaje yaje kubona Papa we. Eh Papa we aza kumutwara. Ariko nawe n’umwana muri uru rugo n’umwana nk’abana banjye uhh akenshi mu biruhuko aba ari hano. N’umwana mukuru amaze kujyera nko muwa gatanu secondaire.
Martin: Nk’umuntu wari utuye hariya ku Mumena urabona ni hafi ya Saint Andre, ngirango abantu bahahungiye biranumvikana n’abantu bari batuye baturiye Saint Andre njyewe rero n’umva n’abantu kenshi na kenshi bagiye bahagaba ibitero usibye n’abasirikare ubwabo. Ese nko mu bantu mwari muturanye cyangwa abantu bari batuye ku Mumena muzi nta bantu muzi baba barigeze baboneka muri ibyo bitero byagiye biboneka hariya hafi ya Saint Andre ?
Mathilde: Nt’abaturanyi by’umwihariko mu bitero nabashije kubona buretse uwo iyo nterahamwe yitwaga KIGIGI niyo narinzi nayo yari ituye ku Mumena. Ariko nyuma naje kumva ko abaturanyi bagiye ba numva hari abasigaye mu ma quartier bagiye batwara bapfiramo nabo ba ba batunzwe agatoki n’abaturanyi ku Mumena hari hatuye abantu bazi ubwenge, ntabwo ngirango bo ba barerekanaga gusa bati aha n’aha aha n’aha aha n’aha abiyerekanye ni bake cyane ariko barahari.
Martin: Ngirango wenda sinzi niba hari ikintu nibagiwe kukubaza ku bintu byerekeranye nu ni n’ibintu byabereye hariya nka nk’abantu bahahungiye, wenda ushobora kuba ntakubajije ariko ukaba wibuka mu buhunzi bwanyu hariya kuri Saint Andre muri Paroise ya Karoli Lwanga niba wenda hari ikintu waba mwaba ntongeye kubabaza nacyo mwakimbwira ku bwicanyi bwahabaye nyuma y’ibyo noneho nkaba nakomeza.
Mathilde: Tsu ese ugirango kuvuga ubwicanyi bwahabaye n’ibintu byoroshye ? hariya habaye ubwicanyi burengeje burenze ukwemera njye hari ibyo nabonye rimwe na rimwe ndanabitekereza nkavuga nti hagomba kuba narabirose atari ibintu nabonye n’amaso yanjye. Nakubwiye ko nabaye ahantu muri ruhurura nk’iminsi itanu ariko ibintu nabonye muri iyo minsi itanu birenze sinzi uko nabivuga.
Martin: Ubu rero nagirango noneho wihangane use nk’unsobanurira uburyo mu buryo burambuye ibyo bintu wabonye ubundi ubu ngirango niba bitakugoye wabidusobanurira. Aha ndashakaku ndashaka kugusobanurira niba ubwicanyi abantu wabonye bica buryo ki byo kuvuga umuntu baramurashe, bamuhonda amahiri n’ibindi bintu byinshi cyanee bitandukanye mu buryo bwo kwica abantu bagiye bakoresha muri kiriya gihe , watubwira.
Mathilde: Njye nabonye abantu, image nibuka niy’umuntu yari umwarimu, yari umu professeur muri Saint Andre,yitwaga BONAPARTE. Abantu baraje Interahamwe bakamukubita amabuye yari umuntu w’umusore muremure wi wigihangange pee ariko ubonye abantu ba bana bamwishe, bamwicisha amabuye bamukubita inkoni, bamukubita impiri ba,sinzi uko nabivuga.
Mathilde: Indi image ntazibagirwa niyo umwana umwana muto w’umuhungu ngirango yari afite nk’imyaka nka cumi n’itatu. Abantu ba bagabo baraza bamukubita imigeri, urumva nari muri ruhurura nkahano hejuru hano ari igihuru.Bakubita umwana imigeri pee kugeza umwana apfuye basize umwana ari intere asigaje akantu gatoya nk’amasegonda kugira ngo apfe.
Mathilde: We yaranandebaga aho nari nihishe bo na ngirango n’Imana yabampishe ariko we yarandebaga akajya akururukaaa akansanga aho ndi aka akanyereka ngo amazi, akavuga ati amazi.ntacyo nshobora gukora Nanjye nkamwihisha kugirango negukomeza kumureba. Tsuuuu habaye ubwicanyi hariya bukomeye cyanee, bwindenga kamere.
Martin: Muri kiriya gihe abantu benshi bagiye bahura n’ibibazo byinshi bitandukanye abantu bakajyenda bava bivanaho ikizere cyangwa se bakumva n’Imana ubwayo itabaho. Wowe muri ibi bintu byose waba waranyuzemo kugeza uyu munsi waba ucyemera Imana.
Mathilde: Njye Imana ndayemera cyanee kuko njye yankijije ibintu byinshi, yarankijije kenshi iranyiyereka ko iriho. Urabona nk’icyo gihe le sept aho nabanje kwihisha nabanje kwihisha munsi y’imodoka, nabuze umwana ndagenda nihisha mu modoka y’umuntu witwaga Tasiyana, bari bamaze kumurasira imbere yanjye ahetse umwuzukuru we. Ndagenda njya mumodo munsi y’imodoka ye kari aka aga suzuki.abantu baraza bica abantu ndeba, abantu bose babica imbere yanjye ndeba.
Mathilde: Barangije ari uko haguye imvura nyinshi cyane nanjye iyo mvura niyo yatumye njya muri iyo ruhurura.njye numvaga nta nta kintu cyatumye batambona cyangwa njye numvaga ari Imana yatumye ibampisha. Ikindi njye cyatumye nemera Imana icyo gihe nanjye nsanga umwana wanjye yari afite 5 ans ariko musanga muri iyo ruhurura duhuriramo n’Imana yanyoboye iti musange hariya. Baje kuduhiga baduhi baduhigisha n’imbwa, imbwa zikaza zikadusangamo zigasubirayo yakugeze iruhande ikakwinukiriza ntimoke. Njyewe i nemera Imana cyane kandi nemera ko ariyo yankijije.
Martin: Ibyo bintu byose rero byarabaye koko n’ibyo muby’ukuri abantu babikoze uyu munsi ngirango barakidegebya, hari abo muhura hari abafunzwe. Ese nkawe nk’umuntu wacitse kw’icumu wumva bishoboka cyangwa se ushobora kubabarira abantu bakoze biriya bintu?
Mathilde: Hee n’ikibazo gikomeye cyane. Ntabwo kubabarira ntabwo ntabwo ari ar’ibintu biri hafi njye mbona atiri ibintu byoroshye buretse ko Atari na ngombwa cyane, ariko ku giti cyanjye njye bariya Bantu nabahana. Nabahana rwose nihanukiriye ndetse,nka kuvuga ngo umuntu a arirega ngo yishe abantu batanu cyangwa icumi akaba ari hanze.
Mathilde: Nta ntawigeze aza ngo avuge ngo nakwiciye umubyeyi nakwiciye umuvandimwe nakwiciye umwana mbabarira, njye imbabazi zanjye numva sinzi, ntabwo mbizi, ntabwo nzii;ntabwo ziri hafi ariko simbizi sinzi uko nabivuga. Ntabwo kubabarira byoroshye ntacyo wabatwara ntanicyo wanakora ariko se wababarira nutagusabye imbabazi.
Martin: Uh ibyo ari byo byose Genocide yaba yabaye kandi igasiga abantu iheruheru, abandi ikabamaraho abantu, ngirango ku mugani nk’uko wavuze Imana yagiye ifasha bamwe babasha kurokora abantu bake ngirango buri munsi wenda ubuzima burakomeza nubwo wenda n’ubwo Atari ibintu byoroshye, nagirango muse nk’abaduha ubuzima nyuma ya Genocide bwifashe gute?
Mathilde: Nyuma ya Genocide njye ku giti Cyanjye njye nashima Imana njye nta kibazo nigeze ngira gikomeye nabashije kurokoka nirwanaho nsana aa inzu bari baransenyeye, mbasha kurera abana banjye barakuze umukobwa wanjye mukuru ari muri Université ndetse nabashije no kurera abandi bana b’imfubyi ndera abana ngira ngo barenze bane.
Mathilde: Ariko ubuzima ku bandi navuze kugiti cyanjye ariko ntabwo navuze ubuzima ku bandi. Ku bandi biragoye cyane cyane ariko. Njya ndeba nk’ubuzima abapfakazi babaho ufite abana ba barenze batanu ufite abana b’imilyango. Reba hanze aha n’ubwo wenda hari ikigega gifasha bamwe, hari igihe bavuga bati turarihira abana kubera amanota aya n’aya aya n’aya hari igihe agerayo akagaruka ati FARG ntabwo yishyuye.
Mathilde: Ukibaza gutunga abana bangana batyo ntuba uriho ntufite aho uri. Ntacyo kubagaburira, ntacyo ubuzima nyuma ya Genocide buraruhije cyane cyane kuri benshi wenda nka 20 pour cent bariho neza ariko 80 pour cent nta buzima bafite abenshi barasenyewe nta mazu bagira abandi bambaye ubusa, abandi bararindagira aho mu mihanda, mbese ubuzima burakomeye cyane nyuma ya Genocide njye niko navuga.
Martin: Eh muri Rusange nk’umuntu wacitse kw’icumu ry’itsembabwoko ryabaye muri mirongo cyenda na kane ni ubuhe butumwa waha abantu abacitse ku icumu.
Mathilde: Njyewe ubutumwa naha abantu bacitse ku icumu ni ugukomera. Kuko ubuzima bwacu burakomeza malgré ko batwishe n’ubwo tutapfuye ngo tuveho ubu twapfuye ikintu kinini cyane, n’uko nta muntu ushobora kutwumva keretse ahari wenda simbizi ariko bari bakwiye kwikomeza ukumva yuko ubuzima bukomeza, agomba gushikama akaba umugabo,umupfakazi akamenya ko agomba kurera abana bakiga, agaharanira ko biga bagakura, nawe agaharanira ko ubuzima bwe y’uko bwakomeza.
Mathilde: Njye nibwo ni nibwo butumwa nabaha no kumva ko aba batwidegebyaho batu ntabwo byoroshye kugirango ube waracitse ku icumu ugaruke ubane n’umuntu wakwiciye umureba gutya. Aba aguhiga umunsi kuyundi ntaba ashaka ko ubaho. Ariko njye icyo nababwira n’uko bagomba gukomera, bakitabaza ubutegetsi. Imana tugira n’uko dufite ubutegetsi butwumva, bagaharanira kubaho ntakundi byagenda, kuko ubuzima burakomeza nta w’upfa ngo…
Martin: Hari ikibazo nari mfite ngiye kugarukaho gatoya. Urabona nyuma abantu bagiye bicwa mu buryo bw’agashinyaguro ba bakagenda bajugunywa ahantu ahenshi hatandukanye ntabwo mu muco ngirango na mbere ntabwo ariko byari bimeze, ubundi ubunzwe iyo umuntu yapfaga arwaye cyangwa se ari n’iyindi mpamvu itumye apfa yarashyingurwaga. Aha rero ese mwaba mwarabashije gushyingura umugabo wanyu ?
Mathilde: Nta ntabwo umugabo wanjye ntabwo namushyinguye kuko si ntabwo namenye ngo yapfuye buryo ki sinamenye ngo yaguye aha n’aha, duherukana icyo gihe kuri Saint Andre bica abantu bahu abantu bose baranyanyagira niba ariho yaguye niba arahandi ntabwo nashoboye kumushyingura nta n’ubwo kume sinabashije no kumenya niba yarapfuye uruhe rupfu.
Martin: Reka dutekereze wenda ko ashobora kuba yarashyingu mu bantu benshi bagiye bashyingurwa hirya no hino
Mathilde: Nanjye ndabyizera.
Martin: Cyangwa se tunizereko wenda ko igihe kizagera abamwishe cyangwa se akabasha no kumwerekana umuntu akaba yamushyingura ndumva umunsi ku wundi abantu bagenda bashakisha uburyo bashyingura abantu babo iyo bagize amahirwe bakababona. Noneho ahangaha, nashakaga kukubaza abantu bacu bapfuye bapfuye mu buryo bapfa bajugunywe hiryo no hino, ubungubu hariho igikorwa cyo kugenda babakusanya abagiye baboneka bagashyingurwa mu rwibutso. By’umwihariko wowe nk’umuntu wacitse ku icumu wumva abantu bacu bako bakwibukwa bate?
Mathilde: Njye ku giti cyanjye njye mbibuka buri munsi ehuu abantu bapfuye twago ntabwo twagombye kubi kubibagirwa,, nkabasigaye b’amahe tugira amahirwe. Abasigaye bishoboye bagombye gukora sinzi icyo twagakoze hagasigara nta muntu n’umumwe wazasigara adashyinguwe mu cyubahiro njyewe nicyo nicyo kifuzo cyanjye.
Mathilde: Tugize amahirwe abantu babishe bakatwereka aho bari hose tukabakurayo tukabashyingura, kubibuka bwo njye numva ntawe ukwiye kubyi ntawe ukwiye kubyibagirwa n’ikintu umuntu agombye kwibuka. Kandi ngirango umuntu wese ara nkeka ko benshi babyibuka buri munsi. Nkanjye ku giti cyanjye sinshobora kurara nta sinshobora kurara nta ntabatekereje cyangwa ntabibutse cyangwa.. Twakagombye rero kubibuka buri munsi uko bukeye uko bwije. Kuko ni nacyo kizatuma ahari ngira ngo bita bitazongera no kuba.
Martin: Ngira ngo dusoza ehh urabona abana bazagukomokaho ndashaka kuvuga Abuzukuru bawe cyangwa se Abuzukuruza n’abandi b’umulyango akanshi na kenshi abana baravuka iyo basanze sekuru adahari bashobora kubaza bati ni ukuvuga mu magambo make ngo abana bazadukomokaho bazagenda bahura n’ingaruka za Genocide. Ubundi mu muco nyarwanda abantu bari bamenyereye ko umwana aravuka agasanga sekuru cyangwa se nyirakuru agasanga ariko kubera ko ikibazo cy’uko uko abantu bagiye bicwa , birumvikana ko abana bazajyenda bahura n’ibibazo byinshi bitandukanye. None ndagira ngo n’iki wabwira urubyiruko ahangaha ndashaka kugira ngo tube turimo turavuga turimo dusoza, umuntu uzadukomokaho abana bazadukomokaho nk’umurage wabaha n’ubwo bwose wabayeho mu bihe nk’ibyo ibyo ari byo byose hari icyo wifuriza abana bejo hazaza.
Mathilde: Njye icyo nakwifuriza abana bejo hazaza n’uko eh ibyatubayeho bitazongera kubabaho ariko kandi njye nta njye nta n’ubwo napfukirana kubabwira amateka. Ntabwo nahisha umwana n’abana banjye nk’umukuru nibyo yari atangiye kuvuga ati Papa. Kugira ngo rero abe ataravuze iryo zina huu nkamubwira ngo ndamupfukirana cyangwa ndamuhisha, njye nzamubwira uko ngomba kumubwira uko byagenze.
Mathilde: Gusa wenda namusaba nti muzaharanire ku kugira ngo iki kintu cye kuzabaho ariko ntabwo twabapfukirana ngo twekutababwira amateka abana bagomba kumenya impamvu batabonye ba sekuru batabonye ba nyirakuru batabonye ba se. hari n’abatagira n’epfo na ruguru batigeze bamenya n’ababyeyi. Njye nkeka ko ntabwo twabapfukirana ngo twekutababwira amateka wenda umuntu yababwira ati muzaharanire imbere ha hanyu muzabane neza ariko bakamenya n’ibintu byose uko byagenze.
Martin: Murakoze.
Mathilde: Murakoze namwe.
Dock window
Dock windowView Topics
Discrimination and Persecution (go to page)
Anti-Tutsi Measures and Legislation
Beatings
(with guns and sticks)
(of professor)
Killings
Killings of Children
(by teargas)
(by kicking)
Mass Executions
Shootings
(of speaker's husband)
(of many by Interahamwe)
(between cities)
Family Life (go to page)
Deaths of Loved Ones
(death of husband)
(death of father's family)
People by Family Relationships
Search for Loved Ones
Famous and Infamous People
Habyarimana Juvenal
Government and Political Life
Death of Habyarimana Juvenal
Hiding (go to page)
(in gully)
(in gully, with priests)
Liberation and Post-Liberation Life
FARG
Message for the Future
Military (go to page)
Inkotanyi
(in Mumena)
(conquering Kigali)
Interahamwe
(coming for speaker's family)
(executions by)
(to help the speaker)
Psychological, Emotional and Cognitive Experience (go to page)
Postwar Reflection upon Forgiveness
Religious and Philosophical Life
Issues of Faith
Responses to Persecution and Totalitarian Rule
Aid
Aid Givers (Religious Leaders)
Rescue Attempts
Red Cross, International
Struggle for Survival
Discussions of Flight
Flight to Churches
Dock windowView People
Habyarimana Juvenal
Kigingi
(leader of Interahamwe)
(recognized by speaker)
Munyakazi
(General of the army)
(ignoring pleas for help)
Uwanyirigira Mathilde
Uwanyirigira
Dock windowView Places
Gacuriro
Kigali
Nyacyonga
Nyakabanda
Nyamirambo
Karoli Rwanga parish
Mumena
Rafiki
Rebero
Ruhengeri
St. Andre
St. Paul
Dock windowTable of Contents
Introduction
Genocide Experience
Death of Habyarimana
Massacre at St. Andre Parish
Flight to Mumana
Fate of Husband
Fate of Family Members
Post-Genocide Experience
Reflections on Genocide
Reflections on Forgiveness
Reflections on Survival
Dock windowView Map
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